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Old 01-18-08, 02:31 PM   #1
buddyp
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Campy front shifting problem

I have an '06 fuji team carbon that I bought a while back. It came with 105 10 speed but I've been a campy guy since the 70s so I bought it planning to convert it to campy. Not long after I bought it I got a smoking deal on an '06 centaur gruppo. I changed everything but the crank (truvativ elita compact 50/36) and chain (105?) over to the centaur stuff months ago and rode it that way and it worked great. Only problem was the black chrome on the truvativ rings was chipping off and I hated the way it looked - can you say cheap?

Last sunday I finally got around to buying the tools to take the truvativ off and I put the campy crank on (centaur compact 50/36). Long story short, I am having a problem shifting off the big ring and onto the small when the chain is on the outer (smaller) 4-5 cogs. The chain gets stuck between the rings and the crank jus spins. I spent a couple of hours trying every trick I know (moved up, down, toed in, out) to get it to work and I think that I actually ended up with it being worse that what I started out with. FWIW, all shifts up are fine and downshifts on the inner (big) cogs are fine too. Rear shifts are not a problem either.

I called Campy USA and the guy there said I need a campy chain. I don't have a problem buying a campy chain but I have a really hard time beliveing that putting a campy chain on it going to solve all my problems. I'm concerned that I may have a chainline issue. the seat tube is roughly 32mm and I bought a 111mm centaur BB. Could that be the problem?
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Old 01-18-08, 02:42 PM   #2
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You need to tweek the limit screws on the derailleur anytime you make changes. Also re-adjust cable tension if needed.

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Old 01-18-08, 03:20 PM   #3
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AFAIK, the 111mm BB spindle is for triples, not doubles. I'm thinking you might need the 102mm spindle. Also, the Campy USA guy is right - you should use a Campy or Campy compatible chain to run properly on Campy cassettes. If the chain is falling between the two front rings, it could well be a combination of chain-line and chain width/chain-ring gap incompatibility.
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Old 01-18-08, 03:40 PM   #4
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AFAIK, the 111mm BB spindle is for triples, not doubles. I'm thinking you might need the 102mm spindle.
For chorus and record 102mm spindles are for doubles and 111mm for triples. For centaur and below 111mm is for doubles and 115mm for triples. I was thinking that I might have been better off with the 115mm spindle because of the diameter of the seat tube but I reviewed the campy documentation this morning and it says use 111mm for 32mm seat tubes and a double.

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Also, the Campy USA guy is right - you should use a Campy or Campy compatible chain to run properly on Campy cassettes. If the chain is falling between the two front rings, it could well be a combination of chain-line and chain width/chain-ring gap incompatibility.
Its a 5.9mm chain so I figured that since campy UN chains were 5.9mm it would work. Clearly its NOT working, so I will replace the chain. Only I won't have one for a while and I want to ride tomorrow. I may put the truvative crank and BB back in tonight rather than try to ride it the way it is now.
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Old 01-18-08, 07:26 PM   #5
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For chorus and record 102mm spindles are for doubles and 111mm for triples. For centaur and below 111mm is for doubles and 115mm for triples. I was thinking that I might have been better off with the 115mm spindle because of the diameter of the seat tube but I reviewed the campy documentation this morning and it says use 111mm for 32mm seat tubes and a double.
Yeah - I just got home and looked it up.... you're right. Actually, it says 111mm for Veloce & Centaur triples if you have a 28.6mm seat tube, and 115mm for 32mm (which is what you have).
http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/7225254_Crankset.pdf

Interesting though, because I have Veloce 111mm bb 's on both my bikes, sporting (square taper) Centaur 10sp triple cranks. both have 32mm clamp FD's, but one has shim inserts to fit on a "classic" 28.6mm tube. Both have Full Centaur 10sp groups, one has a Campy chain and the other a KMC Campy compatible chain. Both bikes have over 1,000 miles with no issues, especially one as you describe.

So, I don't think chain line is an issue for you, or at least I don't think it is causing your problem.
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Old 01-18-08, 07:30 PM   #6
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The centaur front derailleur had both a regular fd, and a compact fd. Could that be part of the problem?
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Old 01-18-08, 07:39 PM   #7
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If the chain replacement doesn't solve the problem...

Is your front derailleur the model designed for compact chainrings, meaning a tighter radius on the cage to better follow the curve of the chainring?

I use my standard Record front der on a compact FSA crankset with a Mavic chain and experience no shifting problems, so I'm not at all convinced that this is your problem. But it's one more thing to check.

Barring that, I'd start over with the whole drivetrain assembly process and make sure everything was correctly installed/tensioned/adjusted.

Good luck.
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Old 01-18-08, 08:07 PM   #8
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You really shouldn't be hanging up between the two rings. Has nothing to do with the cassette. Might have something to do with chain wear (but not type of chain) so if your chain is hanging off the teeth when you're in the big ring, replace it. Probably has something to do with chainring spacing on the crank (too far apart or chain is too narrow). Probably has something to do with front derailleur if it's not a Compact type (for 2008 apparently front der are good for compact and normal).

Make sure you've done the following:

1. Installed the big ring properly, i.e. pins are just off of top and bottom dead center (and corresponding low teeth). The chainring has modified teeth (and pins) to help the chain derail under lateral load (i.e. a derailleur is pushing it). If you've randomly installed it, the pins/ramps may be in the meat of your power stroke, not where you're applying less pressure.

1a. Make sure your chainring isn't installed backwards. This applies for both the inner and outer rings.

2. Adjust your front derailleur so the bottom of the cage just barely clears the chainring when it moves from one ring to the other. I "drop" the chain to the BB area and move the derailleur with my fingers, lowering it until it clears by about 1mm, maybe a bit less. I have to move it up when the derailleur pivots wear a bit, it's that close.

2a. Also adjust the derailleur rotationally so that the outer cage is parallel to the chain when you're in the big ring, little cog (53x12 for example). Ignore the very front of the cage, focus on the middle of the cage. Then get some channel locks:


Set it to the second narrowest "groove" - when the teeth are parallel to each other, they should be about as far apart as the front derailleur cages (inner and outer).

Squeeze the cages together. They flex and bounce back so give it a good tweak, maybe 1-2 mm total after it finishes bouncing back.

Your shifting should be vastly improved.

The channel lock trick is great at a shop - free front derailleur tweak, perfect shifting. Hem and haw while rubbing your chin first, then do it. I have a version of this for the rear derailleur, bending the derailleur to instantly fix rough shifting in the rear. Even my guys at the shop would be happily surprised when I'd tweak their finicky derailleurs for them.

hope this helps,
cdr
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Old 01-18-08, 08:35 PM   #9
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I'm running an old standard Record derailleur with my Centaur compact cranks. Absolutely shifts smoothly.
Like I said before, check limit screws and cable tension.
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Old 01-18-08, 10:10 PM   #10
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I stopped by a shop on the way home and picked up a record chain and connex link. I put it on and tried it and it WORKED -- I never touched the FD. Being the engineer that I am I couldn't leave well enough alone so I dropped the FD down a bit from where I left it after last nights big battle (about 3mm above the teeth at the point of closest approch) down to about a fingernail's thickness. That didn't affect the downshifts much (if anything they were a hair worse) but the upshifts are much crisper.

Regarding the chainring phasing -- the crank came with the rings already on it. I ASSuMEed it was correct. ISTR that the pins are 90 degrees to the arms, but I'm not going back downstairs to check now. I'll leave that for another day.

Re chain wear - the chain that was on it (105) had about 1200 miles on it. 1500 tops. It was a little elongated but not a lot -- maybe 5mm over the full length.
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Old 01-19-08, 08:21 AM   #11
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Chainring phasing on my Chorus crank;

The big ring is obvious as the chain drop pin has to be aligned with the crank arm and facing outward.

The middle (mine is a triple) ring is aligned so all of the labels face outward and match the big ring. I.e. the "10-speed" labels align and the "C10" ring size labels align, etc.
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Old 01-19-08, 12:02 PM   #12
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The single most difficult thing, in an entire group, to design and manufacture is the chain, my friends, the chain.

It all hangs on the chain.
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Old 01-19-08, 02:31 PM   #13
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Chainring phasing on my Chorus crank.....
According to the Campy manual, the chainrings should be timed by lining up the diamonds stamped on the outside of the ring.
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Old 01-19-08, 03:46 PM   #14
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According to the Campy manual, the chainrings should be timed by lining up the diamonds stamped on the outside of the ring.
Those diamonds, like all of the other verbiage engraved on my chainrings, do indeed line up.
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Old 01-19-08, 08:43 PM   #15
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I rode 42 miles today on the new chain w/ no issues at all. As far as I can tell the bike shop gave me the wrong connex (marked 6.2mm) but it didn't seem to be a problem -- fingers crossed it stays that way.

Thanks to everyone that replied!
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Old 01-19-08, 08:58 PM   #16
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I rode 42 miles today on the new chain w/ no issues at all. As far as I can tell the bike shop gave me the wrong connex (marked 6.2mm) but it didn't seem to be a problem -- fingers crossed it stays that way.

Thanks to everyone that replied!
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Old 01-20-08, 11:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
AFAIK, the 111mm BB spindle is for triples, not doubles. I'm thinking you might need the 102mm spindle. Also, the Campy USA guy is right - you should use a Campy or Campy compatible chain to run properly on Campy cassettes. If the chain is falling between the two front rings, it could well be a combination of chain-line and chain width/chain-ring gap incompatibility.
The 102 is for Record or Chorus doubles only not Centur. The Record and Chorus triples use the 111 but not the same as the Centaur 111 (as in symmetrical vs assymetircal). The Centaur Triple can use either the 111 or 115 depending on the seattube width...115 for a 35mm seatpost and a 111 for others (32 can go either way). Hope you have a compact FD for your group...I have used a triple RD for the compact crankset but it took a lot of fiddling with to work right. All the engineering that Campy does with the FDs is meant to optimize the shifting for a particular group. You can mix and match carefully...and that is the operative word.
I agree with you on the chain issue. The Veloce chain is a good robust chain for daily riding and works on all the groups. I have had good luck with the Record ultrathin chain for local riding but I would use the Veloce for the touring I do. I always use a Connex quick link to make life easy for cleaning the chain which adds greatly to the life time of the chain. I have a spare chain so it is a quick switcheroo when I need to clean a chain.
I have Record 10 D&T, Chorus 10 D&T, Centaur 10 T, Daytona with Racing triple 9 spd Cyclocross. I have substituted 26 and 28T T/A Specialities 74 bcd chain rings to get lower gearing for long touring in the Colorado mountains. I am about to experiment with a 11/34T 9 spd SRAM RD built on a chorus hub with a campy built Shimano freehub body and will try the 10 spd shifters. Thanks for Sheldon Brown's vast website it is a great resource to look at specs before venturing off into the world of "mix'n match". Trying to get to the ultimate trouring bike for future rides lugging gear. Experimenting is fun.

Get the chain and play with the FD. It should work. Also, what RD do you have...Medium? Get the length of chain right as well.

Last edited by Deanster04; 01-20-08 at 11:43 AM.
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