Cold setting a frame from 120 to 135 too much?
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Cold setting a frame from 120 to 135 too much?
The frame to be considered for cold setting is the original IRO group buy frame. I would like to use an alfine 8 speed hub with it but cannot buy a new frame with the appropriate spacing. Using the Sheldon "Riding into the Sunset" Brown method, is it safe to cold set this frame 7.5 mm on each side? I only weigh 120 lbs. I plan to check the alignment as I go and verify dropouts aligned properly. I'm more or less asking if anyone has done it successfully and if there's a chance of it working.
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Does the Alfine require 135mm? I cold-set a frame from 126 to 130 for a Nexus-8 hub. The anti-rotation washers are on the outside of the dropouts in that configuration. I'm assuming with a 120 that you must have track ends on it? That ought to work fine. If you have vertical dropouts you'll need a chain tensioner.
That said, as long as it is steel I bet you can do it. You're just going to have to make sure you keep the dropouts aligned and centered. I have the Park tools necessary to do that which made the job pretty easy. You can make up a frame alignment gauge out of wood. I know a guy who made one out of a hockey stick. A threaded rod and a few nuts and washers will work for the dropout alignment tool in a pinch. I used a 2x4 bungied to the seat stay and chain stay on the dropout side of the brake/fender mount as the lever point to make sure that I didn't break that weld.
The better the tubing the more it spring-like it is. That is to say the further you have to flex it before you hit its yield point. A hi-ten frame bends really easy. Chrome-Moly takes a lot of work so be really patient and only go a couple mm at a time.
That said, as long as it is steel I bet you can do it. You're just going to have to make sure you keep the dropouts aligned and centered. I have the Park tools necessary to do that which made the job pretty easy. You can make up a frame alignment gauge out of wood. I know a guy who made one out of a hockey stick. A threaded rod and a few nuts and washers will work for the dropout alignment tool in a pinch. I used a 2x4 bungied to the seat stay and chain stay on the dropout side of the brake/fender mount as the lever point to make sure that I didn't break that weld.
The better the tubing the more it spring-like it is. That is to say the further you have to flex it before you hit its yield point. A hi-ten frame bends really easy. Chrome-Moly takes a lot of work so be really patient and only go a couple mm at a time.
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I think it would be too much. That's more than 10% wider.
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I ride a bike nearly every day that was originally 126mm, I cold set it to 135mm. No problems whatsoever. I've not done 120 to 135, so I dunno about that. FWIW, the frame I cold set from 126 to 135 is super sturdy 4130 steel. If I were to guess, I'd guess that there would be no problems, other than dropout alignment, if I were to cold set it another 6mm. Just a guess, though-
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The frame to be considered for cold setting is the original IRO group buy frame. I would like to use an alfine 8 speed hub with it but cannot buy a new frame with the appropriate spacing. Using the Sheldon "Riding into the Sunset" Brown method, is it safe to cold set this frame 7.5 mm on each side? I only weigh 120 lbs. I plan to check the alignment as I go and verify dropouts aligned properly. I'm more or less asking if anyone has done it successfully and if there's a chance of it working.
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Yes, Alfine is 135mm. I'm going to go for it...probably this weekend. The way I look at it, worst case scenario, I screw up a $150 frame, best case scenario, I get to use the Alfine. I'll let ya'll know if it was a success!
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Yes, you can cold set a steel frame that much. Use the method on Sheldon's site and you should be OK. Depending on tubing, you might get away even without actually setting it! Just spread the frame and insert the wheel while still in the elastic region of the deformation. At least worth a try.
EDIT: best done with a buddy/wife/parent/subordinate or anyone else willing and able to help.
EDIT: best done with a buddy/wife/parent/subordinate or anyone else willing and able to help.
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I think the big thing here is patience and going a little at a time, all the while making small adjustments to the overall side to side and the dropout alignment. I really don't think you'll have much of a problem, although there are some things to look out for. As mentioned before, you want to be very aware of the stresses it is going to put on the seatstay and brake bridges. However, because they are TIG welded, they will probably hold up much better than if they had been brazed. The other issue to watch for is kinking of the tubes, if you've done it before, you know that you have to move the tube farther to overcome it's natural elasticity. If it's possible, you may want to try and rig a curved surface to bend around as it will distribute the stresses over a far greater surface than if using the the end of the tube (the the bottom bracket area) as the fulcrum point for the bend. Much the same way I used to rake fork blades.
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Nope, if you're going to put a 135mm hub into a frame that's spaced at 120mm, you're going to have to cold set it, bending one side at a time to insure proper alignment when you're done, and re-align the dropouts-
Last edited by well biked; 02-14-08 at 08:46 AM.
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If you don't cold set this frame, and merely "squeeze" the wheel in while flexing it, you're going to run into the problem of easy road service. It is hard work to flex the frame and get the wheel in, and it might even be a two person job in reality. If you have to change a flat you'll need the wheel off. Getting it back on may be next to impossible.
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If that's true, (edit: s)he could cold set it to 130 and then just spread (not set) it to fit 135. I believe Sheldon also says that if you are only going up one size (130->135) then it's usually just easier to spread the stays each time, and perfectly acceptable.
Last edited by anti.team; 02-14-08 at 11:23 AM.
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I'm a she and I had no intention of forcing a 135 into the 120 spaced frame. Cold setting has always been the plan, just wanted to know what I'm up against! I appreciate the advice and will use several of your suggestions when I go for it!
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If you don't cold set this frame, and merely "squeeze" the wheel in while flexing it, you're going to run into the problem of easy road service. It is hard work to flex the frame and get the wheel in, and it might even be a two person job in reality. If you have to change a flat you'll need the wheel off. Getting it back on may be next to impossible.
What we're missing out on, here, is the actual story behind all this: an IRO (Mark V?) being used with the Shimano Alfine 8 speed hub! That's a very interesting beast, and definitely pics-worthy once it's done. The Mark V doesn't have much clearance, I think, for wider tyres, so this will be the skinniest tyre yet to see an Alfine hub, I guess.
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That's a good point. Yes, it definitely could be a two person's job going 120mm --> 135mm.
What we're missing out on, here, is the actual story behind all this: an IRO (Mark V?) being used with the Shimano Alfine 8 speed hub! That's a very interesting beast, and definitely pics-worthy once it's done. The Mark V doesn't have much clearance, I think, for wider tyres, so this will be the skinniest tyre yet to see an Alfine hub, I guess.
What we're missing out on, here, is the actual story behind all this: an IRO (Mark V?) being used with the Shimano Alfine 8 speed hub! That's a very interesting beast, and definitely pics-worthy once it's done. The Mark V doesn't have much clearance, I think, for wider tyres, so this will be the skinniest tyre yet to see an Alfine hub, I guess.
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650b tire size is the missing piece to your puzzle. I have the bike currently built up as a 650b fixed. I'm running 32mm tires right now with room to spare. I'm also changing the fork to a kogswell konversion fork to lower the trail for front loading and for porteur rack mounting. I'll post pics if it turns out alright.
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Oh, and for your lever, the longer the better. You might want to use a 5-foot or longer section of cast-iron pipe. A broom handle isn't going to get the job done and if it is too short, you won't be able to work carefully enough. I used a 4.5 foot wooden handle that was 1.75 inches in diameter It flexed a lot and I had to apply a lot of force -- more than I was comfortable with! Next time I will go to the hardware store for a piece of pipe.
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The frame to be considered for cold setting is the original IRO group buy frame. I would like to use an alfine 8 speed hub with it but cannot buy a new frame with the appropriate spacing. Using the Sheldon "Riding into the Sunset" Brown method, is it safe to cold set this frame 7.5 mm on each side? I only weigh 120 lbs. I plan to check the alignment as I go and verify dropouts aligned properly. I'm more or less asking if anyone has done it successfully and if there's a chance of it working.
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Interesting project! I have an original IRO group buy frame, too, and have thought about doing this at some point in the future. Be sure to let us know how it goes.
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I'd plan to undershoot the 135 just slightly. If you get it aligned perfectly on both sides and it still is only ~131-ish, I'd leave it. I have done this a few times. It is scary sometimes how far you have to bend it just to get a change at all. During cold set sessions I have had >145 dimensions occur that I had to start bending back. It can be tricky to get it aligned perfectly on both sides but it is very doable. (I used a 2x4 for the bend procedure and would recommend wood over pipes for obvious scratch reasons. I used a graphite golf shaft as part of my alignment tools. It also helps to have a perfectly centered and true wheel already on a 135 hub to eyeball results.)
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AND whatever alignment rig you decide on ---try it out on the frame BEFORE you bend it so you have experience on how it works and what it look like.
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I read an article from Reynolds about their steels. It indicated that the "old" steels, such as Reynolds 531, had good tolerance for "cold settings". But, the lighter "heat treated" steel tubing can NOT be safely cold set, because the heat treatments make the steel "brittle", like aluminum, and cold setting increases the chances of a frame failure.
This became a problem when Reynolds first began selling the "heat treated" tubing. Many frame builders were in the habit of "correcting" alignment errors after building a frame by realigning the frame. The modern steels require getting the frame alignment precisely correct during the building process as realignment will weaken the frames.
So, frame builders had a new goal: perfect frame alignment from the get-go.
What type of steel tubing was used to build your frame?
This became a problem when Reynolds first began selling the "heat treated" tubing. Many frame builders were in the habit of "correcting" alignment errors after building a frame by realigning the frame. The modern steels require getting the frame alignment precisely correct during the building process as realignment will weaken the frames.
So, frame builders had a new goal: perfect frame alignment from the get-go.
What type of steel tubing was used to build your frame?
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I read an article from Reynolds about their steels. It indicated that the "old" steels, such as Reynolds 531, had good tolerance for "cold settings". But, the lighter "heat treated" steel tubing can NOT be safely cold set, because the heat treatments make the steel "brittle", like aluminum, and cold setting increases the chances of a frame failure.
This became a problem when Reynolds first began selling the "heat treated" tubing. Many frame builders were in the habit of "correcting" alignment errors after building a frame by realigning the frame. The modern steels require getting the frame alignment precisely correct during the building process as realignment will weaken the frames.
So, frame builders had a new goal: perfect frame alignment from the get-go.
What type of steel tubing was used to build your frame?
This became a problem when Reynolds first began selling the "heat treated" tubing. Many frame builders were in the habit of "correcting" alignment errors after building a frame by realigning the frame. The modern steels require getting the frame alignment precisely correct during the building process as realignment will weaken the frames.
So, frame builders had a new goal: perfect frame alignment from the get-go.
What type of steel tubing was used to build your frame?
It's an IRO Mark V. Normal 4130 CroMo.
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Did you go 120mm to 135mm???
650b tire size is the missing piece to your puzzle. I have the bike currently built up as a 650b fixed. I'm running 32mm tires right now with room to spare. I'm also changing the fork to a kogswell konversion fork to lower the trail for front loading and for porteur rack mounting. I'll post pics if it turns out alright.
OK another qt. If going with the 135mm hub how is that going to affect the chainline and BB spindle length ?? Current setup is 54/40 gears NERVAR BB 68mm x 116mm spindle ... Think I may need to get another BB with longer spindle since the rear hub would be 5mm (for 130mm) or 7.5mm (for 135mm) further out than the original 120mm hub???
Thanks!
Will
NJNightRider ... still ridin' it .