Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1
    surly old man jgedwa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    IRO Mark V, Karate Monkey half fat, Trek 620 IGH, Cannondale 26/24 MTB, Amp Research B3, and more.
    Posts
    3,291
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    machining a .833 steerer to 1.0

    Anyone ever done it? Seems like it should be relatively easy to do.

    This is for a fork I do not even have yet (long story, I know: why would I knowingly buy a fork that does not fit.). But I gather (and hope) that the OD is the same for both.

    jim
    Cross Check Nexus7, IRO Mark V, Trek 620 Nexus7, Karate Monkey half fat, IRO Model 19 fixed, Amp Research B3, Surly 1x1 half fat fixed, and more...
    --------------------------
    SB forever

  2. #2
    biked well well biked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    6,842
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What you would want to do, if you decide to do it, is increase the inside diameter of the fork's steerer tube from 21.15mm to 22.2mm. It's quite a bit of material to remove. Lots of old Schwinns used this stem/steerer size, some Nikishis, and maybe some Ross's (and maybe more, for that matter). Oh, and some BMX bikes, too, I guess.

    I asked Sheldon about the prospect of doing this using an adjustable reamer, and he said he thought it would be do-able, but would take a lot of elbow grease. He cautioned about not reaming too far down into the steerer tube also, just ream out the part where the stem will go.

    My experience with these forks is on Schwinns, and everything about the fork is the same as a "standard" 1" fork except the inside diameter of the steerer. In other words, the outside diameter of the steerer is 1." It was a spec that went way back with Schwinn, at least into the '60's; they wanted thicker walled steerer tubes (but at the expense of smaller diameter quill stems). I would think a machine shop might be able to handle a job like this as well. Whether the cost would exceed the value of the fork, I don't know-
    Last edited by well biked; 02-14-08 at 08:42 PM.

  3. #3
    surly old man jgedwa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    IRO Mark V, Karate Monkey half fat, Trek 620 IGH, Cannondale 26/24 MTB, Amp Research B3, and more.
    Posts
    3,291
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Since it is about 1mm difference in diameter, that means .5 difference in radius (taking off .5mm worth of material all the way around). Am I foolish for thinking that it would not be a monumental effort to do this with a reamer?

    jim
    Cross Check Nexus7, IRO Mark V, Trek 620 Nexus7, Karate Monkey half fat, IRO Model 19 fixed, Amp Research B3, Surly 1x1 half fat fixed, and more...
    --------------------------
    SB forever

  4. #4
    biked well well biked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    6,842
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jgedwa View Post
    Since it is about 1mm difference in diameter, that means .5 difference in radius (taking off .5mm worth of material all the way around). Am I foolish for thinking that it would not be a monumental effort to do this with a reamer?

    jim
    Like I said, Sheldon said it should be do-able with a reamer, but he indicated it would not be easy. I've also heard of folks taking the approach of sanding a 22.2 stem to 21.15, and those stories usually end with something like, "man, I'll NEVER do that again!" If you're determined to do it, it might be worth it to see what a machine shop would charge-

    Also, if you do this, I'd be interested in knowing what the results are. I've got quite a few Schwinns-

  5. #5
    biked well well biked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    6,842
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here's the thread where I asked Sheldon about doing this with a hand reamer. I asked the question in post #27, and he answered it in post #28:

    Can you hone out a seat tube?

  6. #6
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Dallas
    My Bikes
    03 Raleigh Professional (steel)
    Posts
    6,896
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jgedwa View Post
    Since it is about 1mm difference in diameter, that means .5 difference in radius (taking off .5mm worth of material all the way around). Am I foolish for thinking that it would not be a monumental effort to do this with a reamer?

    jim
    That's a lot of material no matter how you do it. I don't think I'd feel safe riding the result.
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  7. #7
    biked well well biked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    6,842
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DMF View Post
    That's a lot of material no matter how you do it. I don't think I'd feel safe riding the result.
    I agree that it's something to think about. But again, the end result would be a steerer tube with the same wall thickness as almost all 1" threaded steerer tubes. In Sheldon's response in the thread I linked to, he said he thought it would be fine as long as you don't go too far into the steerer tube-

  8. #8
    aspiring Old Wart Sluggo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Left bank, Knoxville TN
    Posts
    455
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The difference between a fork that fits a 22.2 stem and one that fits a 0.833 stem is that the 22.2 steerer is a butted tube. It is not only thinner at the top to accept the thicker stem, but it is also thicker at the bottom, seamless, and probably cro-mo even in an otherwise carbon steel bike.

    The 22.2 fork is stronger and just plain better. Just get a good fork and don't mess with the reamer.

  9. #9
    biked well well biked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    6,842
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo View Post
    The difference between a fork that fits a 22.2 stem and one that fits a 0.833 stem is that the 22.2 steerer is a butted tube. It is not only thinner at the top to accept the thicker stem, but it is also thicker at the bottom, seamless, and probably cro-mo even in an otherwise carbon steel bike.

    The 22.2 fork is stronger and just plain better. Just get a good fork and don't mess with the reamer.

    There are plenty of 22.2mm ID steerer tubes that aren't chromoly, aren't seamless, etc. In the example I cited in the question to Sheldon in the other thread, I was referring to two old Tange forks, both specced as hi-ten steel, and there was no difference in the forks except the thickness of the steerer tube walls, as per the Schwinn spec. I don't know which specific alloy was used with each fork, but again, they were both hi-ten. I don't think it's that critical, and based on his answer, neither did Sheldon.
    Last edited by well biked; 02-16-08 at 07:52 PM.

  10. #10
    aspiring Old Wart Sluggo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Left bank, Knoxville TN
    Posts
    455
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by well biked View Post
    There are plenty of 22.2mm ID steerer tubes that aren't chromoly, aren't seamless, etc. .
    I disagree. Every fork with a 22.2 ID steerer that I ever saw in my decade of bike shop work was butted and seamless. I am not sure about cromo, but that's what I heard on pretty good authority, and if you are going to go to the trouble of manufacturing a butted tube, it may as well be good steel. I have seen some pretty obvious seams on 0.833 steerers.

    If you look at the bottom (fork crown) end of a 22.2 steerer, it is clear that it is thicker there than at the stem end, and also thicker at that end than a 0.833 steerer. And if you look down the inside of the steerer, you can see the butting (and the rifling, if it is Columbus).

    This is important because the fork blades are a pretty good lever and the lower headset race is an effective fulcrum, so if the steerer is not thicker toward the bottom it bends pretty easily with a blow (crash or substantial pothole). And this is a hidden reason (along with the obvious things like ashtabula cranks) that American bike-boom bikes were inferior to the international competition. I have vast respect for Sheldon, but I disagree with him if he said that reeming a 0.833 steerer was worth doing.

  11. #11
    biked well well biked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    6,842
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You are definitely mistaken about all 22.2mm ID steerer tubes being seamless, I've got at least two in my basement right now that have obvious seams. But it's beside the point. The OP doesn't really seem to be asking if this thing about enlarging the ID of the steerer is practical, just if it's possible, how easy or difficult, etc. I've never done it, but I've thought about it, and I gave my insight, including a reference to the time I asked Sheldon this very question not long ago(click the link above if you want to read it) .

    My reasoning for wondering about it is that I have a bike that has the original fork on it, the fork contributes significantly to the bike's steering geometry, I really like the bike, and it has an .833" (21.15mm) stem/steerer on it. If I ever have to replace the stem, I will have many more choices available if the steerer's ID is 22.2mm. It's not practical thinking, I know, but that's not what's at issue. I'm not sure what the OP's reasoning for wondering about this is-

  12. #12
    MFA jjvw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    1973 Italvega Nouvo Record; '04 Felt F80 :1977 Motobecane Super Mirage : 1965 Hercules
    Posts
    1,176
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm raising a dead thread, but I have the same crazy desire to ream out a steerer tube. My reasoning is the same as well biked--I want to keep the original fork and I want more quill options than what is available in .833" (21.1mm).

    Could someone explain to me this. Two Tang steerers (or in my experience, 2 Ishiwata steerers) have the same OD, but one has 22.2mm ID and the other has 21.1mm ID. If the 21.1mm ID tube is reamed out to match the other tube, why is it weaker -- especially if the non-reamed tube is supposedly butted? The reamed tube will still have more steel left on it than the butted one. In addition wouldn't the thinner butted section cause problems with the wedge bolt on the quill? Please help me understand this.
    Last edited by jjvw; 03-18-08 at 10:39 PM.
    <---------------------------------------------------------------------I once caught a signature THIS BIG--------------------------------------------------------------------->

  13. #13
    Call me The Breeze I_bRAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Corbyville Ontario
    My Bikes
    2004 Litespeed Siena, 1996 Litespeed Obed, 1992 Miele (unknown model), 1982 Meile Uno LS.
    Posts
    3,699
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If you're dead set on it you could do half stem half steerer and spread the love around.

    Unless you have access to a lathe and the skill to operate it you're gonna wind up spending quite a bit of money for a stem and fork.

  14. #14
    MFA jjvw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    1973 Italvega Nouvo Record; '04 Felt F80 :1977 Motobecane Super Mirage : 1965 Hercules
    Posts
    1,176
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Assume that I'm dead set on it, I_bRAD.

    Going the half stem/half steerer route involves two sets of procedures and is probably more work than going only one way or the other. And it still doesn't solve the problem of taking a non-standard frame dimension to a standard one.

    I'm not seeing a significant physical difference between the two final tubes, except one has been rolled or drawn, while the other was cut into its finished shape. Perhaps someone can argue against it from a metallurgical standpoint by discussing the structure of the forged vs. machined steel.
    Last edited by jjvw; 03-18-08 at 09:06 PM.
    <---------------------------------------------------------------------I once caught a signature THIS BIG--------------------------------------------------------------------->

  15. #15
    Call me The Breeze I_bRAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Corbyville Ontario
    My Bikes
    2004 Litespeed Siena, 1996 Litespeed Obed, 1992 Miele (unknown model), 1982 Meile Uno LS.
    Posts
    3,699
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do you want less work, a stronger final result or you don't care as long as it's pretty?

    It would be more work to machine both, but it would be a stronger system
    It would be less work to machine one or the other, but you'd end up with a weaker setup.
    The cheapest and strongest would be to buy a 22.1 stem, but it wouldn't have the look you want.

    forged vs machined is a moot point in this case. And irrelevant in many cases because it ultimately depends on the design of the system, and not just one manufacturing process.

    You're reducing the material in a high stress zone, so the less you do the better.

  16. #16
    surly old man jgedwa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    IRO Mark V, Karate Monkey half fat, Trek 620 IGH, Cannondale 26/24 MTB, Amp Research B3, and more.
    Posts
    3,291
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I am still waiting for someone more desperate than me to actually try reaming the fork, so they can report back. Surely, I am not the biggest fool here. Am I?
    Cross Check Nexus7, IRO Mark V, Trek 620 Nexus7, Karate Monkey half fat, IRO Model 19 fixed, Amp Research B3, Surly 1x1 half fat fixed, and more...
    --------------------------
    SB forever

  17. #17
    MFA jjvw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    1973 Italvega Nouvo Record; '04 Felt F80 :1977 Motobecane Super Mirage : 1965 Hercules
    Posts
    1,176
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I_bRAD, if a discussion between forged vs. machined is a moot point, then what I'm failing to understand is why the the machined steerer of the SAME steel and the SAME OD is ANY different in size, strength and function than the non-machined steerer of the SAME dimensions. Understand that the depth of the reaming would only be as deep as the quill could go. It would not go all of the way through past the crown.

    Following your argument, then all 22.2mm ID steerer tubes are fragile and we should long for the old Schwinn standard of overkill that most manufacturers did not use. What am I missing?

    And God forbid that I place any value on form over function. I'll just buy a unicrown fork to replace my prettier lugged one.
    Last edited by jjvw; 03-18-08 at 10:31 PM.
    <---------------------------------------------------------------------I once caught a signature THIS BIG--------------------------------------------------------------------->

  18. #18
    MFA jjvw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    1973 Italvega Nouvo Record; '04 Felt F80 :1977 Motobecane Super Mirage : 1965 Hercules
    Posts
    1,176
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jgedwa View Post
    ...Surely, I am not the biggest fool here. Am I?
    Hi!
    <---------------------------------------------------------------------I once caught a signature THIS BIG--------------------------------------------------------------------->

  19. #19
    MFA jjvw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    1973 Italvega Nouvo Record; '04 Felt F80 :1977 Motobecane Super Mirage : 1965 Hercules
    Posts
    1,176
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here's the update you've all been waiting for. I swung by my favorite LBS after work today. I asked the old man behind the counter if the fork could be reamed from 21.1 to 22.2mm. After complimenting the nice fork crown, he said he could and has done the job many times--including on old Schwinn steerer tubes. On top of that, he has never heard of one failing afterwards.

    I'll let you know what happens in about a week after he's done with mine.
    <---------------------------------------------------------------------I once caught a signature THIS BIG--------------------------------------------------------------------->

  20. #20
    biked well well biked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    6,842
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jjvw View Post
    Here's the update you've all been waiting for. I swung by my favorite LBS after work today. I asked the old man behind the counter if the fork could be reamed from 21.1 to 22.2mm. After complimenting the nice fork crown, he said he could and has done the job many times--including on old Schwinn steerer tubes. On top of that, he has never heard of one failing afterwards.

    I'll let you know what happens in about a week after he's done with mine.
    Hey, that's cool. Please do let us know how it turns out. Is he going to use a hand reamer for this? How much does he charge to do it?

  21. #21
    MFA jjvw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    1973 Italvega Nouvo Record; '04 Felt F80 :1977 Motobecane Super Mirage : 1965 Hercules
    Posts
    1,176
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I just picked the fork up. It cost me $60 and some grief over the mechanic's new set of blisters. He used an adjustable reamer and did it all by hand to a depth of 4" out of a possible 9.5". I measured it and, as I suspected, it now has the same OD, ID, wall thickness, etc as my Fuji touring with the similar Ishiwata steerer tube. The only difference now is that the Schwinn's lower 5.5" remains thicker (stronger?) than anything else in my fleet.

    I have more parts to buy, modify and re-engineer before this thing hits the road, but I'll be sure to give a ride update and let everyone know if it breaks.

    Maybe I'll try to squeeze my 700c fixed wheelset into the frame and see if the fork can handle some skids. That would be a good test.
    Last edited by jjvw; 03-26-08 at 06:40 PM.
    <---------------------------------------------------------------------I once caught a signature THIS BIG--------------------------------------------------------------------->

  22. #22
    MFA jjvw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    1973 Italvega Nouvo Record; '04 Felt F80 :1977 Motobecane Super Mirage : 1965 Hercules
    Posts
    1,176
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I threw some wheels and handle bars on the frame and rode it around the parking lot a little--no brakes yet and all freewheel! I was putting all my weight (~190 lbs) on the front and I didn't notice any unusual flexing. So far so good.
    Last edited by jjvw; 03-30-08 at 07:02 PM.
    <---------------------------------------------------------------------I once caught a signature THIS BIG--------------------------------------------------------------------->

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •