Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,012
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Spoke breaking repeated again and again

    I got a relatively like new older wheel. My guess is that it was probably a machine built wheel laced with straight guage stainless spokes and I believe alloy nipples...I know brass is better but that is what they came with.

    The wheel had only one spoke broken to begin with. Being curious I squeezed the pairs of spokes with my hands and had three spokes pop.

    Suppose I have my shop replace all three spokes and re-tension/true the wheel. Will I be in good shape? The mileage on the wheel seems very low.

  2. #2
    Senior Member MudPie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,874
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet View Post
    I got a relatively like new older wheel. My guess is that it was probably a machine built wheel laced with straight guage stainless spokes and I believe alloy nipples...I know brass is better but that is what they came with.

    The wheel had only one spoke broken to begin with. Being curious I squeezed the pairs of spokes with my hands and had three spokes pop.

    Suppose I have my shop replace all three spokes and re-tension/true the wheel. Will I be in good shape? The mileage on the wheel seems very low.
    Where are the spokes breaking (at nipple, at hub entry, in the middle)?

    Something doesn't sound right, for three spokes to break as you squeezed with your hands.

    I'd have the entire wheel relaced and built using the same hub and rim.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    First of all, how much is this wheel worth? It sounds like it's a cheap entry level wheel that you can get a replacement for less than $50. It is not worth the time or labour to rebuild a **** hub.

    On the other hand if you have say, a chris king hub on a nice rim, it's probalby worth rebuilding. Just to give you an idea where you stand money wise.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    St Peters, Missouri
    My Bikes
    Rans Enduro Sport, Hase Kettweisel Tandem, Merin Bear Valley beater bike
    Posts
    23,105
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SoreFeet View Post
    Suppose I have my shop replace all three spokes and re-tension/true the wheel. Will I be in good shape?
    Only replacing the broken spokes is sending good money after bad. You need a complete rebuild and I wouldn't bet on the rim being rebuildable.

  5. #5
    Senior Member capwater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Quahog, RI
    My Bikes
    Giant TCR Comps, Cdale R5000, Klein Q-Pro, Litespeed Siena, Piasano 105, Redline Conquest Pro, Voodoo Bizango, Fuji Aloha
    Posts
    1,509
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Repeated spoke breaking is a sign of uneven tension. Get the whel to someone with a tensionmeter.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    7,819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    if tis a cheap ars wheel doesnt even worth to be sent to the shop because they will ask you probably 50 bucks for the job and probably the whole wheel costs less than that.

  7. #7
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by capwater View Post
    Repeated spoke breaking is a sign of uneven tension. Get the whel to someone with a tensionmeter.
    Multiple spoke breakage is a sign of fatigue, not uneven tension. You could have even low tension and get metal fatigue, you could have even high tension with a bad spoke line and get fatigue. If the spokes were not stressed relieved, you will get fatigue.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Vero Beach FL
    Posts
    1,103
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If the rim is old enough it could have been one of a huge bunch that left China with bad spokes. There was quite a problem with wheels built for OEMs with a bad batch of spokes. Saw one in the LBS just today

  9. #9
    Senior Member mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Snowy midwest
    Posts
    5,392
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When I get a bike that I am parting out, I often take the spokes off the wheels and save them. This is just about the only way you can justify replacing multiple spokes on a wheel - doing it yourself with low-cost parts. If you have to rely on the shop to replace spokes, it is a money losing proposition.

    Chances are the wheel was damaged by some kind of trauma. Check to see if it is round. If the wheel is not round, you will be replacing spokes often.
    Mike

  10. #10
    NeoRetroGrouch
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    412
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou View Post
    Multiple spoke breakage is a sign of fatigue, not uneven tension. You could have even low tension and get metal fatigue, you could have even high tension with a bad spoke line and get fatigue. If the spokes were not stressed relieved, you will get fatigue.
    How can stress relieving reduce fatigue? - TF

  11. #11
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    St Peters, Missouri
    My Bikes
    Rans Enduro Sport, Hase Kettweisel Tandem, Merin Bear Valley beater bike
    Posts
    23,105
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTurtle View Post
    How can stress relieving reduce fatigue? - TF
    I'm not convinced that "stress relieving" is an accurate term. I suspect that what really happens is the process seats the elbow end in the hub. If you don't do it the spoke will seat itself eventually through use but it will also cause the spoke to lose tension.

    FWIW I don't think that shift cables stretch either. I think that what we percieve as cable stretch is actually due to the cable housing seating itself in the ferrules and cable stops.

  12. #12
    NeoRetroGrouch
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    412
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    I'm not convinced that "stress relieving" is an accurate term. I suspect that what really happens is the process seats the elbow end in the hub. If you don't do it the spoke will seat itself eventually through use but it will also cause the spoke to lose tension.

    FWIW I don't think that shift cables stretch either. I think that what we percieve as cable stretch is actually due to the cable housing seating itself in the ferrules and cable stops.
    Stress relieving does seem to be real. The metal in the spokes has an elasticity that allows it to stretch. However at any tension, some of these elastic bonds will no longer return. Stress relieving puts more tension on the spoke than it will ever see in use and pre-breaks most of the non-elastic bonds.

    If the heads are set with a spoke punch when the wheel is built, they should be stable.

    Some call the spoke unwinding (the pings) 'stress relief' though that is really something entirely different.

    TF

  13. #13
    Keeping A Low Profile
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atascadero, California
    My Bikes
    Specialized Hardrock Sport [1998], Dahon Speed P8 2007, 1994 Diamond Back Ascent and a couple of Schwinn Stingrays [one boys, one girls] from circa 1977.
    Posts
    160
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTurtle View Post
    Stress relieving does seem to be real. The metal in the spokes has an elasticity that allows it to stretch. However at any tension, some of these elastic bonds will no longer return. Stress relieving puts more tension on the spoke than it will ever see in use and pre-breaks most of the non-elastic bonds.

    Wow! I guess every engineering book on 'strength of materials' will now need to have a chapter added. Sarcasm aside, your explanation is simply wrong.
    The older I get the less future there is to worry about!

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    My Bikes
    Swift folder, single speed
    Posts
    851
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I remember years ago I had a bike, a Fuji, I think. The spokes kept breaking. Turns out they were inserted into the spoke holes backwards.

  15. #15
    NeoRetroGrouch
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    412
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dwood View Post
    Wow! I guess every engineering book on 'strength of materials' will now need to have a chapter added. Sarcasm aside, your explanation is simply wrong.
    The explanation may be 'layman' and simplistic, but which is wrong? That metal will deform and return to its original shape? That it will not return completely to it original shape? TF

  16. #16
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTurtle View Post
    How can stress relieving reduce fatigue? - TF
    During manufacturing, the elbow of a spoke is made by bending it. Part of the spoke went past its elastic limit and part didn't. Since they were brought to their yield stress while bending, the addition of tension will put part of the spoke at its yield point. Steel near its yield point has a short fatigue life.

    Stress relieving will increase the spoke stress beyond the yield point, but only in the part of the spokes that are at the yield point. These parts will deform plastically and take a permanent set. When the stress relief force is removed, the spoke does not spring back and it will relax to a lower stress.

    Since the microscopic parts of the spoke that were at its yield point are no longer at their yield point the fatigue life is greatly increased.
    Last edited by SweetLou; 05-03-08 at 11:56 AM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    I'm not convinced that "stress relieving" is an accurate term. I suspect that what really happens is the process seats the elbow end in the hub. If you don't do it the spoke will seat itself eventually through use but it will also cause the spoke to lose tension.

    FWIW I don't think that shift cables stretch either. I think that what we percieve as cable stretch is actually due to the cable housing seating itself in the ferrules and cable stops.
    That is not stress relieving. Stress relieving is an accurate term. Spokes will seat during tensioning. I assume when you say "seat" you mean the deformation of the hub by the spokes.

    You are correct about cables not stretching, but it isn't the housing seating itself. It has to do with the way cables are made. The extra tension on the cables will cause the cables' weave to settle into place, causing a tighter weave. The pre-stretched cables have done this weave tightening for you.

  18. #18
    Junkmaster
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Arcadia, California
    My Bikes
    Lemond "Alpe d'Huez," several X-marts, and two Trek hybrids
    Posts
    133
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think what you people are talking about here is a well-known phenomenon in materials science known as work hardening.

    A metal stressed beyond the yield point will plastically deform and increase in yield strength. Cold-working improves certain mechanical properties, such as fatigue life and hardness, but generally the material as a whole becomes more anisotropic from deformed grains : you gain properties in one direction at the expense of properties at, say, a right angle to it.

    What turtle said about how at any stress some parts of the metal are not elastic, is true. That is, the vast majority of the metal is elastic below the yield stress, but a tiny fraction of it isn't and will plastically deform. This is known as elastic hysteresis loss, and accounts largely for the reason why springs will stop bouncing under a mass even under perfect vacuum.

  19. #19
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not. Spokes are work hardened, but stress relieving is not work hardening. It is the relieving of the residual stress of the spoke from manufacturing.

  20. #20
    Keeping A Low Profile
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atascadero, California
    My Bikes
    Specialized Hardrock Sport [1998], Dahon Speed P8 2007, 1994 Diamond Back Ascent and a couple of Schwinn Stingrays [one boys, one girls] from circa 1977.
    Posts
    160
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It is really a misnomer when someone says they 'stress relieve' a spoke. When you squeeze adjacent spokes together, or press on the rim, or any number of other ways to 'stress relieve' spokes, you are not changing the metallurgy of the spoke one iota. Stress relieving most metals involves heating them to an elevated temperature, allowing them to 'soak' at that temp for a specific length of time, and then letting them return to room temperature, usually slowly.

    What is really happening with bicycle spokes it that they are trying to reach the shortest distance between the rim and hub. The end at the hub seats itself. The nipple seats itself in the rim. Any twist in the spoke [due to friction between the spoke and the nipple when it is tightened] is allowed to unwind itself by either the nipple turning in the hub or the spoke unscrewing itself from the nipple. Once this is done the spoke is stable.

    A spoke normally tightened never reaches it plastic region.
    The older I get the less future there is to worry about!

  21. #21
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dwood View Post
    It is really a misnomer when someone says they 'stress relieve' a spoke. When you squeeze adjacent spokes together, or press on the rim, or any number of other ways to 'stress relieve' spokes, you are not changing the metallurgy of the spoke one iota. Stress relieving most metals involves heating them to an elevated temperature, allowing them to 'soak' at that temp for a specific length of time, and then letting them return to room temperature, usually slowly.

    What is really happening with bicycle spokes it that they are trying to reach the shortest distance between the rim and hub. The end at the hub seats itself. The nipple seats itself in the rim. Any twist in the spoke [due to friction between the spoke and the nipple when it is tightened] is allowed to unwind itself by either the nipple turning in the hub or the spoke unscrewing itself from the nipple. Once this is done the spoke is stable.

    A spoke normally tightened never reaches it plastic region.
    That is also not stress relieving. You are setting the spoke line That is different than taking a spoke beyond its yield point so that it plastically deforms.

    You are correct that a normally tightened spoke doesn't reach its yield limit, but parts of the elbow are at its yield point due to the bending during manufacturing. This is what you are trying to get rid of. If the elbow is not stress relieved, it will remain at its yield point, reducing fatigue life. Once this residual stress is removed, then a tensioned spoke is not at its yield point. This is why a properly stress relieved spoke that is tensioned adequately will last a very long time, longer than the rim will last.

  22. #22
    Keeping A Low Profile
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atascadero, California
    My Bikes
    Specialized Hardrock Sport [1998], Dahon Speed P8 2007, 1994 Diamond Back Ascent and a couple of Schwinn Stingrays [one boys, one girls] from circa 1977.
    Posts
    160
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou View Post
    That is also not stress relieving. You are setting the spoke line That is different than taking a spoke beyond its yield point so that it plastically deforms.

    You are correct that a normally tightened spoke doesn't reach its yield limit, but parts of the elbow are at its yield point due to the bending during manufacturing. This is what you are trying to get rid of. If the elbow is not stress relieved, it will remain at its yield point, reducing fatigue life. Once this residual stress is removed, then a tensioned spoke is not at its yield point. This is why a properly stress relieved spoke that is tensioned adequately will last a very long time, longer than the rim will last.

    Absolutely wrong! When it was bent during manufacture the area of the bend 'did' exceed its yield point, allowing it to remain bent. But it doesn't 'stay' at its yield point just because it is bent. In fact, depending on the alloy, its yield point has now been raised in the area of the bend due to work hardening. No amount of dickin' around with squeezing, pushing, pulling on that spoke is going to stress relieve the metal in that spoke.
    The older I get the less future there is to worry about!

  23. #23
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dwood View Post
    Absolutely wrong! When it was bent during manufacture the area of the bend 'did' exceed its yield point, allowing it to remain bent. But it doesn't 'stay' at its yield point just because it is bent. In fact, depending on the alloy, its yield point has now been raised in the area of the bend due to work hardening. No amount of dickin' around with squeezing, pushing, pulling on that spoke is going to stress relieve the metal in that spoke.
    Absolutely wrong! Yes, part of the bend did go beyond the yield point, But parts didn't. The parts that didn't go beyond the yield point are at or very close to the yield point. When you bend a spoke, say at a 90 degree angle and let go, does that spoke stay at a 90 degree angle? No, it springs back a bit. This is because not all of the steel was brought to yield. Maybe Jobst Brandt can explain it better than I can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jobst Brandt
    Spokes are cold formed. After cold forming steel always springs back a certain
    amount. The spring-back is incomplete because part of the material went
    beyond its elastic limit and part did not. These disparate parts are fighting each
    other, and when spokes are tensioned, one or the other of these elements will
    be stressed additionally. This stress can be, and often is, at the yield stress and
    must be relieved when the wheel is completed.
    After correcting the spoke line, and when the wheel is true and tensioned, its
    spokes may appear to be in perfect alignment. However, some of the spokes have
    a good line at the elbow and rim only because they are tensioned. Besides, spokes
    have residual stresses at their elbows, heads, and threads from their forming
    process. As the wheel was laced the spokes may have been bent to make them
    conform to the hub and nipples. Since they were brought to their yield stress to
    bend them into place, the addition of tension guarantees that they remain at the
    yield point. When stressed to near their yield point, spokes have a short fatigue
    life. These stresses must be relieved to make the wheel durable.

    HOW STRESS RELIEVING WORKS
    Stress relieving can be regarded as correcting the spoke line at a microscopic
    level. The process momentarily increases spoke tension (and stress) beyond the
    yield point, but only in the parts of the spoke that are near yield. At the high stress
    points the spoke will deform plastically and take a permanent set. When the
    stress relief force is removed these areas cannot spring back, having, in effect,
    lost their memory, and relax to a lower stress.
    You might not believe that parts of the spoke are at the yield point due to manufacturing, you might not believe that stress relieving is just that, taking the microscopic parts that are at the elastic limit beyond the limit so that they are plastically deformed, but it is.

  24. #24
    NeoRetroGrouch
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    412
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dwood View Post
    It is really a misnomer when someone says they 'stress relieve' a spoke. When you squeeze adjacent spokes together, or press on the rim, or any number of other ways to 'stress relieve' spokes, you are not changing the metallurgy of the spoke one iota. Stress relieving most metals involves heating them to an elevated temperature, allowing them to 'soak' at that temp for a specific length of time, and then letting them return to room temperature, usually slowly.

    What is really happening with bicycle spokes it that they are trying to reach the shortest distance between the rim and hub. The end at the hub seats itself. The nipple seats itself in the rim. Any twist in the spoke [due to friction between the spoke and the nipple when it is tightened] is allowed to unwind itself by either the nipple turning in the hub or the spoke unscrewing itself from the nipple. Once this is done the spoke is stable.

    A spoke normally tightened never reaches it plastic region.
    Again, you are saying that a spoke does not get longer when it is tensioned? And does not get shorter when that tension deceases while riding? - TF

  25. #25
    Senior Member SweetLou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No, dwood is saying that a spoke does not go beyond yield once it is tensioned in a wheel. There is elastic stretching. This is true and nothing will cause a plastic deformation. A plastic deformation will only happened if something hits the spokes, like your derailer or if the rim fails and tacos.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •