Now that I've got your attention - I'm making some wheels with Ambrosio FCS 28 deep-V rims. It seems like I need to use the longer 16mm nipples (rather than the usual 12mm) to get them to protrude far enough through the rim to be able to grab them with a spoke wrench (even my trusty Spokey). Two questions: 1) Is this normal with deep-V rims, say for example, Velocity deep V's? and 2) When using this longer nipple, do you then subtract the 4mm from the spoke length given by whatever spoke length calculator you use? In other words are most of these calculators assuming a 12mm nipple length?