Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-08-08, 06:29 AM   #1
mike
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Bikes:
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Plea: Fellow wrenches, please grease the tough stuff

Hey guys, you know from working on old bikes that eventually what you do is going to be worked on by somebody else somewhere down the line - and that might be 25 years from now.

You would think with all that is known today that everybody would be making liberal use of grease to keep parts from melting together, but I still find stuff dry as a bone and corroding together. It takes a lot of tricks, chemicals, muscle, time, swearing, and praying to get some of this stuff apart and back into workable condition.

After struggling with frozen headsets and pedals this weekend, let me encourage everybody to PLEASE:
  1. grease the stem and stem bolt
  2. grease pedal bolts. Don't over-tighten
  3. grease seat post
  4. grease any point where aluminum comes in contact with steel.

Also, remember not to oil before tightening bolts. Oiling allows you to overtighten and when the oil disepates, it is really tough to get the parts to budge. If you want to oil for corrosion protection, do it AFTER you assemble. IMO, every screw and bolt end should have a wipe of grease to keep it from corroding.

Some future wrench will surely notice your work and thank you profusely. Be a cool cat and think of the next wrench. Who knows... it might come back to you for work years from now.

Last edited by mike; 06-08-08 at 06:32 AM.
mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-08, 07:59 AM   #2
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Greaser or not, 25 years from now stuff is going to be seized - especially if the bike is being ridden.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-08, 08:05 AM   #3
grudgemonkey
26r
 
grudgemonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: merica
Bikes: road, hardtail, fs, streetbeater
Posts: 271
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I completely dissemble every part and bolt on bikes when I am not riding them to prevent this from happening. You can never be too careful
grudgemonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-08, 08:26 AM   #4
mike
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Bikes:
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
Greaser or not, 25 years from now stuff is going to be seized - especially if the bike is being ridden.

This is not necessarily so. 25 years ago was 1983. Not so long ago really in bike years. I work on bikes a lot older than that that are not seized - especially if some thoughtful mechanic properly greased the parts.
mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-08, 08:32 AM   #5
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike View Post
I work on bikes a lot older than that that are not seized - especially if some thoughtful mechanic properly greased the parts.
Not doubting your claims, but i've worked on bikes a lot younger than 25 years and parts have been seized - even with adequate grease application.

I'm not saying your situation is impossible, but when you have Toronto winters, snow, ice and wetness all year around unless you're doing post #3 or are exceptionally on top your mainteance. Stuff -will- seize, regardless of many tons of grease was used on the bolt/nut/nipple etc to begin with.

Although I do understand the frustration - which is the main point of #1 anyways. K, nitpicking off.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-08, 08:59 AM   #6
Wordbiker
Pwnerer
 
Wordbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pagosa Springs, CO, USA
Bikes: Road, MTB, Cruiser, Chopper, BMX
Posts: 2,907
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Why bother when removing stuck components pays shop rates?

I thank the previous mechanics that don't use grease, keeps folks like us in the know in business.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
Ski, bike and wish I was gay.
Wordbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-08, 10:49 AM   #7
Tabor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Bikes: Surly Pacer with full Ultegra
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike View Post
Also, remember not to oil before tightening bolts. Oiling allows you to overtighten and when the oil disepates, it is really tough to get the parts to budge.
Huh? Oiling allows you to CORRECTLY and ACCURATELY tighten the bolts with a torque wrench. That said, I cover bolts with anti-seize.
Tabor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-08, 08:31 PM   #8
strygaldwir
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Anti-seize is somewhat better than grease for longer term protection. The major issues is galvonic corrosion which occurs when two dissimilar metals are in contact with one another in an electrolytic solution (i.e. dirty water). Anti-seize keeps the water out and does not break down under more conditons than most greases.
strygaldwir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 03:18 AM   #9
mike
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Bikes:
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by strygaldwir View Post
Anti-seize is somewhat better than grease for longer term protection. The major issues is galvonic corrosion which occurs when two dissimilar metals are in contact with one another in an electrolytic solution (i.e. dirty water). Anti-seize keeps the water out and does not break down under more conditons than most greases.
Good point. I don't have anti-sieze in my workshop, but I will pick some up next time I go shopping. Any suggestions as to brand, type, etc?
mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 05:31 AM   #10
buddyp
Senior Member
 
buddyp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: washington dc
Bikes: derosa, bianchi, fuji, panasonic, jamis
Posts: 311
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike View Post
Good point. I don't have anti-sieze in my workshop, but I will pick some up next time I go shopping. Any suggestions as to brand, type, etc?
for bike purposes any kind will do.
buddyp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 07:19 AM   #11
n4zou
Scott
 
n4zou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Bikes: Too Many
Posts: 2,393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
Greaser or not, 25 years from now stuff is going to be seized - especially if the bike is being ridden.
They wont if you apply anti-seize to the threaded surfaces. If you use anti-seize an archaeologist in a 1,000 years could easily dissemble the parts.
n4zou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 07:44 AM   #12
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com
Posts: 22,746
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Amen, Mike! I cannot think of a single bike I've seen sold by a local bike shop that has been properly prepped in this fashion. Take it out of the box, put the parts on, and throw it on the floor is the mentality.

That said, I've seen posts and stems in battered VLW's - posts that were greased 35+ years ago - slide out with hardly a issue. The grease might have deteriorated to an extent in the meantime, but it still served its purpose without issue.

Likewise, I've seen lightly-used steel Treks that are no less then 15 years old with permanently jammed stems and a few other stiff assemblies, thanks to sloppy, careless assembly.

I can see the future frustration...

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 08:12 AM   #13
dobber
Perineal Pressurized
 
dobber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: In Ebritated
Bikes:
Posts: 6,557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by grudgemonkey View Post
I completely dissemble every part and bolt on bikes when I am not riding them to prevent this from happening. You can never be too careful
I go one step further and pack it in cosmoline.
__________________
This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.
dobber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 09:40 AM   #14
ginsoakedboy
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A lot of the shops dictate what the mechanics are permitted to do in prepping a bike - it's all about the efficiency and the bottom line. For example, one place I know, the mechs aren't allowed to do anything to the wheels of a new bike beyond lateral truing -- so any hops or flat spots that would require taking off the tire go unattended.
ginsoakedboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 10:17 AM   #15
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com
Posts: 22,746
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
I hesitate to ask what their attitude towards warranty repair is. "Buy it and get lost," eh?

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 12:52 PM   #16
grudgemonkey
26r
 
grudgemonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: merica
Bikes: road, hardtail, fs, streetbeater
Posts: 271
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobber View Post
I go one step further and pack it in cosmoline.
I have a sealed oxygen-free clean room in my basement 40' underground.
grudgemonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 03:53 PM   #17
madman451
tinker
 
madman451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Bikes: Schwinn World, MOAB, Varsity; Trek 820, Miyata Five-Twelve rebuild
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Recently there was a customer who ended up paying $70 in order to put on a bottle cage because the bolt was siezed in the frame, had to be drilled out and and repaired. Grease botle cage bolts, too. Giving every bolt a quick swipe in a tub of grease is worth the seconds it takes.
madman451 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 07:10 PM   #18
mike
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Bikes:
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by madman451 View Post
Recently there was a customer who ended up paying $70 in order to put on a bottle cage because the bolt was siezed in the frame, had to be drilled out and and repaired. Grease botle cage bolts, too. Giving every bolt a quick swipe in a tub of grease is worth the seconds it takes.
$70 bottle cage. Who gave the customer that bill? Knock of 10% for favored customer discount? hee hee.
mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 07:15 PM   #19
BCRider
Senior Member
 
BCRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The 'Wack, BC, Canada
Bikes: Norco (2), Miyata, Canondale, Soma, Redline
Posts: 5,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
Huh? Oiling allows you to CORRECTLY and ACCURATELY tighten the bolts with a torque wrench. That said, I cover bolts with anti-seize.
A small point to add.....

On the better torque tables supplied by fastener compaines you'll find two torque values. One for dry threads and another for lubricated threads. Lube including oil, grease or anti sieze compounds.

If you lube a thread and then torque it to the dry spec the bolt will actually have somewhere around 20% more tension in it than it's supposed to have.
BCRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 08:41 PM   #20
tekknoschtev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lansing, MI
Bikes:
Posts: 323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is something good for me to be reading now - I'm just getting into wrenching around with my bikes, taking apart bottom brackets and headsets to re-grease them and replace bearings as needed. The bike I inherited from my dad likely hadn't been re-greased since it was purchased some 28 years ago. He said they just oiled everything - but the bike has also sat hanging from the garage ceiling for the last 10 or so years. The grease in the bottom bracket was hard, almost the point of being able to be chipped off (it wasn't but another year or two it might have been). The bike was almost a new machine by the time I was done with just the bottom bracket. Next is the head set and then wheel bearings.

As a novice bike mechanic in training - these kinds of things are good to know.
tekknoschtev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 11:20 PM   #21
mike
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Bikes:
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
A small point to add.....

On the better torque tables supplied by fastener compaines you'll find two torque values. One for dry threads and another for lubricated threads. Lube including oil, grease or anti sieze compounds.

If you lube a thread and then torque it to the dry spec the bolt will actually have somewhere around 20% more tension in it than it's supposed to have.
Thanks for this, BCRider. I knew it to be true, but never knew the exact amount of difference between tightening dry or lubricated. All I know is that if you tighten with oil, you tend to overtighten. I have not found this to be the same with grease. Maybe it is because the grease remains when you go to loosen, but oil dissipates after tightening and with time, leaving the fastener super-tight.
mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-08, 11:26 PM   #22
mike
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Bikes:
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekknoschtev View Post
This is something good for me to be reading now - I'm just getting into wrenching around with my bikes, taking apart bottom brackets and headsets to re-grease them and replace bearings as needed. The bike I inherited from my dad likely hadn't been re-greased since it was purchased some 28 years ago. He said they just oiled everything - but the bike has also sat hanging from the garage ceiling for the last 10 or so years. The grease in the bottom bracket was hard, almost the point of being able to be chipped off (it wasn't but another year or two it might have been). The bike was almost a new machine by the time I was done with just the bottom bracket. Next is the head set and then wheel bearings.

As a novice bike mechanic in training - these kinds of things are good to know.
Thumbs up and hats off to you, tekknoschtev.

You added at least another 30 years to the life of the bike. Want to take it a step further? Write up something about your Dad and the bike, then you and the bike. Roll it up, put it into a plastic bag, and slip it into the post tube for a future owner/collector to find.

I am working on an 80+ year old Columbian right now. It would be really cool to know something about the original owner. How did he get the bike? What did the bike mean to him? Who was it? How long was it in the family before it moved on to the next owner? Of course, it would have probably been wrapped in oilcloth or paraphin canvas instead of a plastic bag.
mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-08, 01:30 AM   #23
Tabor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Bikes: Surly Pacer with full Ultegra
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
A small point to add.....

On the better torque tables supplied by fastener compaines you'll find two torque values. One for dry threads and another for lubricated threads. Lube including oil, grease or anti sieze compounds.

If you lube a thread and then torque it to the dry spec the bolt will actually have somewhere around 20% more tension in it than it's supposed to have.
I don't claim otherwise, but if a manufacturer gives you a torque spec you should be able to assume that it is a lubricated value, unless stated otherwise. Dry torque values are much less accurate than oiled/anti-seized ones. Additionally, most manufactures have a large margin of error for their torque values and even if you did mistakenly oil a bolt and then torque it to a dry value, you should still be within the margin of error (in my experience).
Tabor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-08, 06:16 AM   #24
Coldfusion21
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Tabor is correct. Most torque values assume some sort of lube on the threads. I'm still new to wrenching on bikes, but for cars and places where torque values matter (engine assembly) this is the case.
Coldfusion21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-08, 10:09 AM   #25
DMF 
Elitist Troglodyte
 
DMF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas
Bikes: 03 Raleigh Professional (steel)
Posts: 6,924
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Don't think that all forms of thread lube are identical when it comes to torque. "Wet" specs typically assume 30W motor oil. E.g. ARP sells a thread lube that makes a difference of up to 25% when translating torque to bolt stretch (that's what the torque spec is: a rough indication of bolt stretch). So they have two wet specs for their threaded fasteners: one for motor oil and one for their own lube.

On bikes I generally use nickel-based anti-seize and aim for the middle of the manufacturer's torque spec.
__________________
Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

- Will Rogers
DMF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:54 AM.