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  1. #1
    Waiting for Summer ! soderbiker's Avatar
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    building wheels

    HI.
    i am a first timer wheel builder .
    i have a book ( this one ) and a few wheels laying for reference .

    I have several questions , but i'll start with this .
    im like merckx i guess , it has to be perfect or forget it .
    so with that said .
    i have laced up the front rim .but i dont think it's correct -

    i started with all the spoke heads on the outside of the flange on the left side on the rim .
    i placed the i placed the key spoke to the lef tof the valve stem hole .
    then every 4th hole i went clock wise .until those were done .

    then i started on the right side of the rim .and the spoke that is on the left of the vale stem hole , that spokes head is on the inside of the flange.
    this sint correct is it . the pictures are drawing so no real detail , but if i compare to the other rims i have , one side looks correct and the other side looks correct . as far as spoke placement , but theh heads of the spokes are wrong .

    while i am typing this i tihnk i just need to rotate the spoke heads on the left side of the rim .

    Oh my i love this stuff-
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    Waiting for Summer ! soderbiker's Avatar
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    ok well im sry about the post . i re read the book , and it says that symetrical or asymetrical , so what i did was asymetrical , and it didnt look correct but it deosnt matter which 1 you use , i guess then it depends on what you want ,.
    i like symetrical
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    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    You don't need a book to learn to build wheels. It's pretty simple really. Some math skills and reading Sheldon's wheelbuilding how-to is all you need.
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    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellweatherman View Post
    You don't need a book to learn to build wheels. It's pretty simple really. Some math skills and reading Sheldon's wheelbuilding how-to is all you need.
    Math skills? What do you need math skills for?

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    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Math skills? What do you need math skills for?
    You have to be able to count to 4. I think that's 9th grade math here in Los Angeles.

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    I am not impressed with either the author nor the sentence construction (proof read by D T SWISS)

    of the book that you mention; THE BICYCLE WHEEL, BY Jobst Brandt, is IMhO, much superior.


    Regards,
    J T

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    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soderbiker View Post
    ok well im sry about the post . i re read the book , and it says that symetrical or asymetrical , so what i did was asymetrical , and it didnt look correct but it deosnt matter which 1 you use , i guess then it depends on what you want ,.
    i like symetrical
    Asymmetrical is the easiest way to build wheels and it's the way a lot of machine built wheels are done. There's nothing really wrong with it although I have read stuff in the very distant past which implied that the wheel is weaker when built asymmetrically. The wheel is more susceptible to taco'ing because the forces at the spoke head aren't as well balanced. Whether or not that is true, I haven't had a wheel taco on me since I started building them and I've done dozens.

    The best article...and the one I still use...on wheel building is this series. It's easy to follow (the first one in the series is very dated) and results in strong, symmetrical wheels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Math skills? What do you need math skills for?
    There is a tiny bit of geometry/trig (at least conceptually) when you lace different patters on different sides.

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    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    There is a tiny bit of geometry/trig (at least conceptually) when you lace different patters on different sides.
    I'd say that's more for the planning, i.e. deciding on which lacing pattern for given hubs diameters, rim ERDs, and spoke counts. The rest is just counting, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
    I'd say that's more for the planning, i.e. deciding on which lacing pattern for given hubs diameters, rim ERDs, and spoke counts. The rest is just counting, really.
    Umm kindof, except for this step:

    1. Assume a 36h rim, being laced to a geared rear wheel (3x/2x).
    2. Lace the 9 trailing spokes on the drive side.
    3. Lace the 9 trailing spokes on the non-drive side.

    Crap, how do you figure out which hole in the hub to put the first spoke through in the non-drive side? You know which hole you want it in on the rim, but now you need to figure out which hole to put it through on the hub!

    Conceptually, this is trigonometry.

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    thanks , much appreciated .

    2 rims are now laced properly
    thanks all for the help !!

    //t


    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Asymmetrical is the easiest way to build wheels and it's the way a lot of machine built wheels are done. There's nothing really wrong with it although I have read stuff in the very distant past which implied that the wheel is weaker when built asymmetrically. The wheel is more susceptible to taco'ing because the forces at the spoke head aren't as well balanced. Whether or not that is true, I haven't had a wheel taco on me since I started building them and I've done dozens.

    The best article...and the one I still use...on wheel building is this series. It's easy to follow (the first one in the series is very dated) and results in strong, symmetrical wheels.
    1989 Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra|1991 Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra
    1991 Eddy merckx Corsa Extra Time trials|1992 Eddy Merckx Strada
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    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    There is a tiny bit of geometry/trig (at least conceptually) when you lace different patters on different sides.
    A couple of times a year we get somebody who wants to lace a 32 hole rim onto a 28 hole hub or something like that. Somebody always posts they've done it. That would probably take some math skills to figure the spoke lengths. I've always put those projects in the category of "Look at the goofy thing that I'm able to do" rather than serious wheel building.

    I don't do stuff like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soderbiker View Post
    Oh my i love this stuff-
    Don't jump the gun, wait until yer done. Hopefully the process wont end up with a jumble of rubik's cube.

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    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    Umm kindof, except for this step:

    1. Assume a 36h rim, being laced to a geared rear wheel (3x/2x).
    2. Lace the 9 trailing spokes on the drive side.
    3. Lace the 9 trailing spokes on the non-drive side.

    Crap, how do you figure out which hole in the hub to put the first spoke through in the non-drive side? You know which hole you want it in on the rim, but now you need to figure out which hole to put it through on the hub!

    Conceptually, this is trigonometry.
    That is true. Simple trig but it is indeed mathematics. Once again 9th grade level here in L.A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    A couple of times a year we get somebody who wants to lace a 32 hole rim onto a 28 hole hub or something like that. Somebody always posts they've done it.
    I have, laced a 28H rim to a 36H hub for a front,


    and a 32H rim to a 36H hub for a rear,


    Both in 3X.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    .. That would probably take some math skills to figure the spoke lengths.
    I guess it would, if you insisted on doing it the theoretical way. Me, I drew up where the spoke holes would have been in a regular lace, then penciled in where they would end up using the mismatched lace, and measured spoke compensation values from the drawing. Worked well enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    ..I've always put those projects in the category of "Look at the goofy thing that I'm able to do" .
    Trying to live up to your last name, are you? You might be right of course, but if you give some credibility to the builders stories you'd see that it's usually a question of "Hmm, I could do with some wheels, but the parts I already own doesn't really match. Should I buy (more)new stuff or should I look for a way to make (as many as possible of) the parts I already have work for me?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    ..rather than serious wheel building.
    That would depend on what you mean with "serious wheelbuilding". Buying all the pieces for the explicit purpose of building mismatched wheels would indeed be silly.
    But from a pure build perspective a mismatched wheel certainly requires more attention from the builder to come out straight and true and evenly tensioned than a matched wheel would. So from a difficulty standpoint I'd say building mismatched wheels are more serious than matched wheels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    .. I don't do stuff like that.
    Well, that's your call of course. I wouldn't look for mismatched components when I'm planning a new wheel build, but if I'm able to score a good deal on a nice part I won't let a slight hole inconsistency stand in my way either.

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    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    Another good tip to having true wheels last is to avoid spoke twist at all cost. Often, once you get up to higher tensions when you finish building your wheel, you will turn the spoke wrench, but the spoke actually won't tighten on the threads because it twists in the middle. When you get out on the road to ride for the first couple weeks, you start noticing your wheels going out of true often. So avoid spoke twist!

    One good method, once you get to higher tensions, is to overtighten the tension on the spoke wrench, then back it off. That is, overtighten the spoke, then loosen it all the while making sure you have roundness and lateral true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellweatherman View Post
    Another good tip to having true wheels last is to avoid spoke twist at all cost. Often, once you get up to higher tensions when you finish building your wheel, you will turn the spoke wrench, but the spoke actually won't tighten on the threads because it twists in the middle. When you get out on the road to ride for the first couple weeks, you start noticing your wheels going out of true often. So avoid spoke twist!

    One good method, once you get to higher tensions, is to overtighten the tension on the spoke wrench, then back it off. That is, overtighten the spoke, then loosen it all the while making sure you have roundness and lateral true.
    The lesson is to stress relieve and to practice good spoke tightening (tighten more than back off), not avoiding it. You can only avoid it for so long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    The lesson is to stress relieve and to practice good spoke tightening (tighten more than back off), not avoiding it. You can only avoid it for so long.
    I always hold the spoke between my thumb and forefinger to feel for twist. That will give you an indication of how much to back off. And stress relieving prior to putting any tension on the spokes is key. Do not do the old bend-the-rim-on-the-ground thing. That's a very poor way of stress relieving.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    I always hold the spoke between my thumb and forefinger to feel for twist. That will give you an indication of how much to back off. And stress relieving prior to putting any tension on the spokesis key. Do not do the old bend-the-rim-on-the-ground thing. That's a very poor way of stress relieving.
    Not sure I understand. Tensioning the spoke (by turning the nipple) is what twists the spoke and hence the need to stress relieve, how do you stress relieve before you tension?

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    @cycpcommute..
    I have laced up the rear wheel . i have a campy victory hub small ( low ) flange hub & Mavic GP4 rim 36 hole . i have 298 length spokes on the drive side ( right ) and 300 length spokes on the left side .

    i went into the shop and specifically asked for the correct spoke lengths , they said you need what i just posted .
    well i have extremely low tension and the spoke threads are at the top of the nipple . menaing you could not put a flat blade screw driver onto the top of the nipple and turn it .
    so this is incorrect spokes for bother sides or have i missed something here ?

    thanks for the help .
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    Although it's more aesthetically pleasing to have the spoke ends stop just right at the nipple flange it's by no means structurally required.
    If it's a double-walled rim a few mm of overshoot won't mean a thing as long as you're able to get the wheel up to tension before the nipples bottom out on the threads. You may release one spoke from the rim in order to test how much overshoot you can get before running out of thread.

    They might not be the perfect spokes for the wheel, but they can still be close enough.

    A small offset like that can't be explained by a 2X/3X mix-up so I don't think you're missing anything. Maybe the shop simply misread a chart or a label somewhere before picking out your stuff.

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    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabac View Post
    Although it's more aesthetically pleasing to have the spoke ends stop just right at the nipple flange it's by no means structurally required.
    If it's a double-walled rim a few mm of overshoot won't mean a thing as long as you're able to get the wheel up to tension before the nipples bottom out on the threads. You may release one spoke from the rim in order to test how much overshoot you can get before running out of thread.

    They might not be the perfect spokes for the wheel, but they can still be close enough.

    A small offset like that can't be explained by a 2X/3X mix-up so I don't think you're missing anything. Maybe the shop simply misread a chart or a label somewhere before picking out your stuff.
    I agree. You have around 10mm of threads to work with. Most of the time if the nipples are in contact with the rim, you should only have to tighten the spokes a few turns to get the proper tension.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    There is a tiny bit of geometry/trig (at least conceptually) when you lace different patters on different sides.
    Ever look at the formulas in Damon Rinard's Spocalc spreadsheet? I mean, I do pages-long derivations and proofs just for fun, but that stuff made me blanch. I'm very skeptical of black-box calculators, but Spocalc is one black box I use with gusto (and happily gives correct results).

    Quote Originally Posted by dabac
    Although it's more aesthetically pleasing to have the spoke ends stop just right at the nipple flange it's by no means structurally required.
    What about spoke ends poking past the nipple flanges and into the tube? Does this present a puncture hazard, or is the rim tape enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Do not[/U] do the old bend-the-rim-on-the-ground thing. That's a very poor way of stress relieving.
    I don't agree. Sheldon Brown recommends bending in the spoke elbows as soon as the lacing is completed, which I think is what you also recommend, but the stresses set up by the tensioning need to be relieved after full tensioning. Whether you do this on the ground, on the bench, or with a tool (as did Brown, but I've never heard of anyone else doing it his way), you still need to do it or your spokes will fatigue and break at the elbows.
    Brown's method works for me.

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    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    I've been told that the ground method can damage cartridge bearings, so I use the hand method.

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