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  1. #1
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    A tale of two open pros (help me)

    So, I used to rock a 3x 32h Mavic OpenPro (on the back of my bike, laced to an Ultegra freehub). All was fine and good until I got a new job. To get to this new job, there are some rough roads. My 32h 3x OpenPro (which had treated me just fine in the past) suddenly wouldn't stay true. The non-drive side spokes would come loose and it would go all to hell. So, I re-laced it (new spokes, old rim) 3x/2x. This helped, but my rim still wouldn't stay true on my commute.

    So, recently, I built up a 36h 3x/2x OpenPro and this time I used DT Spoke prep. I got the tensions PERFECT (or at least very close to perfect) and this wheel still won't stay true (non-drive side spokes back out). Am I just ****ed? Do I need a 36h deep V for my commute? Is there some other lacing pattern I could try? Maybe 3x/radial? Would that help? I am contemplating loctite, but that seems like such a bad solution.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
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    What are the odds that my Park TM-1 isn't that accurate and I can add tension all around?

  3. #3
    just ride
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    Try going with straight gage spokes on the drive and double butted on the non-drive. The double butted will be stretched more to achieve the same tension so hopefully when they are destressed during braking and pulling, they will not go slack enough to let the nipples back off.

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    What about going up a tire size or two? Less stress on the wheels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackcoke View Post
    What about going up a tire size or two? Less stress on the wheels.
    Good idea... but I already run 28x700c and I can't fit 32x700c under my fenders (maybe if I upgraded to the SKS 35 fenders?). However, what is the optimum tire pressure for me to run? I weigh 200lbs and I carry 20lbs with me to work. Right now I run 105lbs/in^2. Should I be running more?

    Right now I am truing that wheel while adding some tension all around.

  6. #6
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    So, I cranked the drive side up to ~140kgf, much higher than the ~100kgf I had. If that doesn't fix the problem, I will change out spokes. Right now I have 2.0/1.8/2.0 all around. Would I be better off putting straight gauges spokes on the drive side, or stepping down to an even thinner spoke on the non-drive side?

  7. #7
    Harbinger xiamsammyx's Avatar
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    tale
    Quote Originally Posted by jmartinez View Post
    I've learned to always take off my wedding ring when polishing my crank.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiamsammyx View Post
    tale
    Yes, my post-coffee brain is actually quite good at the English language. However, my pre-coffee brain wrote the post and you can't edit titles. Thanks for the bump, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    So, I cranked the drive side up to ~140kgf, much higher than the ~100kgf I had. If that doesn't fix the problem, I will change out spokes. Right now I have 2.0/1.8/2.0 all around. Would I be better off putting straight gauges spokes on the drive side, or stepping down to an even thinner spoke on the non-drive side?
    Well, a straight 2 mm spoke has a 3,14 mm2 cross section area
    a 1,5 mm spoke has 1,77 mm2
    a 1,8 mm spoke has 2,54 mm2
    calculate how many % of DS tension there is on the NDS, then do the math to see which change would give you the closest match. If NDS tension is 60% of DS, then NDS area should be 60% of DS area too.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    So, I used to rock a 3x 32h Mavic OpenPro (on the back of my bike, laced to an Ultegra freehub). All was fine and good until I got a new job. To get to this new job, there are some rough roads. My 32h 3x OpenPro (which had treated me just fine in the past) suddenly wouldn't stay true. The non-drive side spokes would come loose and it would go all to hell. So, I re-laced it (new spokes, old rim) 3x/2x. This helped, but my rim still wouldn't stay true on my commute.

    So, recently, I built up a 36h 3x/2x OpenPro and this time I used DT Spoke prep. I got the tensions PERFECT (or at least very close to perfect) and this wheel still won't stay true (non-drive side spokes back out). Am I just ****ed? Do I need a 36h deep V for my commute? Is there some other lacing pattern I could try? Maybe 3x/radial? Would that help? I am contemplating loctite, but that seems like such a bad solution.

    Thanks in advance.
    Are you stress reliveing your wheels? Getting them to pefect tension doens't mean anything. The whole point of tensioning the wheels properly is so that they don't go out of true and don't break.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabac View Post
    Well, a straight 2 mm spoke has a 3,14 mm2 cross section area
    a 1,5 mm spoke has 1,77 mm2
    a 1,8 mm spoke has 2,54 mm2
    calculate how many % of DS tension there is on the NDS, then do the math to see which change would give you the closest match. If NDS tension is 60% of DS, then NDS area should be 60% of DS area too.
    Good idea. I will.

    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    Are you stress reliveing your wheels? Getting them to pefect tension doens't mean anything. The whole point of tensioning the wheels properly is so that they don't go out of true and don't break.
    Yes, I am. I suppose I could "try harder" at stress relieving. Thanks for the input.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Deanster04's Avatar
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    I would hate to see just how rough the roads are you are taking. I ride 32H OpenPro with 14/15 spokes laced in a 3X pattern on front and rear with 700c25 tires on my road bike. I ride dirt roads quite frequently with some very corrigated surfaces that put quite a stress on the wheels and I have no problems with my spokes loosening up. I build my wheels and use spoke prep and/or linseed oil depending on my mood. If you have a good wheel builder in your town take the wheel to them and ask them to look at the wheels after you do your normal tune...it may cost you but it would be worth it.
    I also have 36H 4X 14/15 DB DT Swiss Spokes on OpenPro rims for my Cross bike. I am not very gentle with this bike and ride very rough roads with Conti Contact 700c28s, off road with Twister 700c32s, and have a set of 700c34s wth studs for winter riding in the snow. The wheels are still round and strong. I used Linseed oil on these. Something is going on with your build and some advice from a good wheel builder might really help correct the problem. When I first started building wheels I had some good builders straighten out my process of building and have had no problems since. Good luck.

    As noted above the problem is in all likely hood you aren't stress relieving the build as you go.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanster04 View Post
    As noted above the problem is in all likely hood you aren't stress relieving the build as you go.
    I have trouble with any logical connection between stress relieving and non-drive side spokes coming loose on their own. Out of curiosity, how much do you weigh and what tension are your drive side spokes set to?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Deanster04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    I have trouble with any logical connection between stress relieving and non-drive side spokes coming loose on their own. Out of curiosity, how much do you weigh and what tension are your drive side spokes set to?
    I weigh 200lbs today but weighed 235lbs last year. I run the tension at the top of the recommenced tension for the front and drive side. Non drive side are what ever they happen to be for the proper dishing. I am sorry but I am in NJ at a friend's waiting to go on the Ride VA ride next week. I don't keep the tension in my head as I build a lot of different wheel configurations for friends. I mainly use OP or DT Swiss RR1.1 for my self. Send me a private message and I will send you the info when I get back to Boulder, CO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    .. recently, I built up a 36h 3x/2x OpenPro ..and this wheel still won't stay true (non-drive side spokes back out).
    What you have is that the circumstances of your ride allows your NDS spokes to go slack enough to unwind. Best option would probably be to relace wheel with either thinner NDS spokes or thicker DS spokes, which would allow you to run a higher tension on the NDS side, which would prevent NDS spokes from going slack and unscrewing.

    Half-radial on the NDS is a mixed blessing, if done heads-out it'd allow the the spokes to run at a steeper angle, which also lets them be run at higher tension, less risk of going slack and all that. OTOH radial spokes are presumed to unscrew easier than tangential spokes as they no longer have that sideways slant to help keep the friction up in the spoke/nipple interface.
    If you have a thick hub spindle (and the hubs are rated for it) you can build DS radial heads-in and get a similar equalizing effect on spoke tension.

    Oh, and take extra efforts to avoid spoke wind-up during building and trueing. I recommend magic marker down one side of each spoke.

    Loctite or not is another one of those questions who really belongs in the category of build aestethics. It's true that it might not be required, and that it's a pain when trueing the wheel later.
    But, it's your wheel, your time and your money.
    If you think it might help you and are ready to deal with the consequences - go for it, and don't mind the purists.

  16. #16
    Formerly Known as Newbie Juha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiamsammyx View Post
    tale
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    Yes, my post-coffee brain is actually quite good at the English language. However, my pre-coffee brain wrote the post and you can't edit titles.
    Fixed.

    --J, a Forum Mod
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    Who is this General Failure anyway, and why is he reading my drive?


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    So, I cranked the drive side up to ~140kgf, much higher than the ~100kgf I had. If that doesn't fix the problem, I will change out spokes. Right now I have 2.0/1.8/2.0 all around. Would I be better off putting straight gauges spokes on the drive side, or stepping down to an even thinner spoke on the non-drive side?
    100kgf DS is too low and will cause the problem you describe, on the other hand 140kgf might be too high. I ran my Mavic CXP33 36H with slightly below 140kgf, the rim never had a problem but the flange on my Ultegra hub broke.
    Around 130kgf seems to be the sweet spot for me.

    --
    Regards

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabac View Post
    Loctite or not is another one of those questions who really belongs in the category of build aestethics. It's true that it might not be required, and that it's a pain when trueing the wheel later.
    But, it's your wheel, your time and your money.
    If you think it might help you and are ready to deal with the consequences - go for it, and don't mind the purists.
    I was worried more about truing later than what anyone would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    100kgf DS is too low and will cause the problem you describe, on the other hand 140kgf might be too high. I ran my Mavic CXP33 36H with slightly below 140kgf, the rim never had a problem but the flange on my Ultegra hub broke.
    Around 130kgf seems to be the sweet spot for me.
    This is exactly the sort of information that is really helpful to me. I read 100kgf on this site actually, but it is good to know that is probably too low. I my rebuild the wheel with those 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes on the non-drive side and then tension the wheel to 130kgf on the drive side. I would really like to come up with a bullet proof OpenPro solution for my commute.

    Thanks to everyone that had constructive input about my problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    Good idea... but I already run 28x700c and I can't fit 32x700c under my fenders (maybe if I upgraded to the SKS 35 fenders?). However, what is the optimum tire pressure for me to run? I weigh 200lbs and I carry 20lbs with me to work. Right now I run 105lbs/in^2. Should I be running more?

    Right now I am truing that wheel while adding some tension all around.
    On a rough roads, 220 lbs, I'd think you would want 32's at least. Cheaper to replace fenders than wheels. I run 32's on my cyclocross bike, which is what I ride if I think the roads are going to be rough. Much better than my road bike with 23's! I only weigh 175 too.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabor View Post
    I read 100kgf on this site actually, but it is good to know that is probably too low. I my rebuild the wheel with those 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes on the non-drive side and then tension the wheel to 130kgf on the drive side. I would really like to come up with a bullet proof OpenPro solution for my commute.
    My Open Pros have 2.0-1.5-2.0 (DT Revolutions) 32h 3X. The driveside spokes are at 157 kgf according to the Park deflection chart. The NDS spokes are about 65% of that. With the tires fully inflated the tension was about 5% lower and I believe I also had some stretching in the spokes. When I first built the wheels I think I had about 100 kgf on the driveside and two of the NDS spokes broke in the "J" bend at the hub. Consequently I bought a tension meter and ran the tension up. After 5 years I've had no more problems and these wheels have stayed true with a few very minor adjustments.
    Knowing what I know now I would have used 2.0-1.8-2.0 spokes on the driveside.

    Al

  21. #21
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    What is your OLD on the hub? Try to reduce the dish as much as possible. I usually remove axle-washer from the drive-side and move it to the left, to reduce the space between the smallest cog and drop-out to 3.5-4mm (the chain won't rub, don't worry). Adding an extra washer or two to the left side will reduce dish even further.

    If this is a commuter wheel, heck, I'd even downgrade the freehub to one or two l fewer gears to reduce the dish. Also I prefer blue Loctite over spoke-prep, it holds better without requiring too much force to adjust later.

    Yeah, being 245-lbs gave me some tough lessons on wheels...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al1943 View Post
    My Open Pros have 2.0-1.5-2.0 ..The NDS spokes are about 65% ...Knowing what I know now I would have used 2.0-1.8-2.0 spokes on the driveside.
    The theory behind that looks quite good, with the cross section of the 1.5 spoke being 69% of the 1.8 spoke, which would go well with the 65% tension imbalance.

  23. #23
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    I'd agree with DABAC that one major issue could be spoke wind-up. I always seem to have a nipple or two that want the spoke to twist with them. as soon as you ride, they will unwind and you're left scratching your head. I'd also keep my spoke tension near the high side as most breakage issues are due to flex from lack of tension rather than too much tension.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackcoke View Post
    On a rough roads, 220 lbs, I'd think you would want 32's at least. Cheaper to replace fenders than wheels. I run 32's on my cyclocross bike, which is what I ride if I think the roads are going to be rough. Much better than my road bike with 23's! I only weigh 175 too.
    Ideally, I would switch to 32s, but I don't think I can fit fenders + 32s on my Surly Pacer (my commuter... my only bike right now).

    Quote Originally Posted by dabac View Post
    The theory behind that looks quite good, with the cross section of the 1.5 spoke being 69% of the 1.8 spoke, which would go well with the 65% tension imbalance.
    So far the jacked up tension is working with 3x/2x and 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes. However, I think this weekend I will rebuild (re-lace?) the wheel with the 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes I got. The 69% cross section combined with the 3x/2x should net me a very reliable wheel, I hope.

    smiller,

    I am SURE there was no spoke windup on my non-drive side. As evidence to this my wheels would only go out of true in rough roads. Also, I do actually pay attention when I am building and truing my wheels. I did have to fight spoke windup on the drive side, though. Next time I will use the magic marker trick.

    DannoXYZ,

    The hub in question is an Ultegra FH-6600 Rear Hub. Flange diameter: 45mm left and right, Center to flange: 38mm left, 21mm right. I doubt I would downgrade the hub since it is brand new and it works with my 9 speed indexed shifters. Still, those are reasonable suggestions for the next bike I might pick up.

    EDIT- And thanks everyone for all the great ideas.

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