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  1. #1
    'roid monkey wannabe AnnaMossity's Avatar
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    I have a custom 2006 Zinn magnesium frame road bike set up for triathlon and a big semi-custom touring bike, the frame of which is a 1983 Apollo Prestige XL.
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    Need suggestions for touring hubs but...

    So I got an Apollo Prestige XL frameset the other day and want to build it up for light touring. Only problem is that the fork dropouts are 100mm and the frame dropouts are 110mm. The frame is designed for 27" wheels (according to the bloke at my LBS) and caliper brakes and I'd like to put some tires on it that are somewhere in between road bike size and MTB so maybe 28mm or a bit wider. What kind of hubs should I get? Oh yeah and I'm looking at 36 spoke and hoping not to break the bank as this is to be my "leaver" bike (the bike I leave places as opposed to the one that never leaves my sight or remains behind locked doors).

    Muito obrigada pela su ajuda!


  2. #2
    Senior Member BCRider's Avatar
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    Are you sure it isn't squished during storage or shipping? 110 mm from Sheldon's (may he be riding with angels) shows....

    Rear older track, coaster brake and other single-speed hubs.

    If it's old enough a 5 speed rear is listed there at 125mm. So even if it's of that sort of vintage it indicates some damage to the frame stays.

    You may want to get it looked at with some measurements to figure out what's happened.
    Model airplanes are cool too!.....

  3. #3
    'roid monkey wannabe AnnaMossity's Avatar
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    I have a custom 2006 Zinn magnesium frame road bike set up for triathlon and a big semi-custom touring bike, the frame of which is a 1983 Apollo Prestige XL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
    Are you sure it isn't squished during storage or shipping? 110 mm from Sheldon's (may he be riding with angels) shows....

    Rear older track, coaster brake and other single-speed hubs.

    If it's old enough a 5 speed rear is listed there at 125mm. So even if it's of that sort of vintage it indicates some damage to the frame stays.

    You may want to get it looked at with some measurements to figure out what's happened.
    Hey, a local rider!

    Well I was in at Our Community Bikes yesterday and they didn't say anything about the stays being warped so I figure it must be just an old or odd design since the frame was manufactured in 1983 by Apollo (Kuwahara). They said they would be able to slide a wheelset they had in to the dropouts and it would just spread them a bit so I figure I'll have to do that with a 120mm 7 speed freehub (if one can be found) I just didn't buy the wheel they had there because it had Sun rims and unknown spokes.
    Still trying to find a bomber rim to go along with these I want 36 holes on the front and preferably 40 on the rear but the Velocity Dyad which I had been hoping to use apparently only comes drilled with 48 holes in 27"! Gads! This is going to be a nightmare project.

  4. #4
    Senior Member BCRider's Avatar
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    HIYA! I didn't notice the location in the first post.... We may have passed each other on the roads here over the years I've been riding.

    The good news for your conversion is that any freehub body and center screw combo will fit onto any Shimano hub so if you can find the hub you want and another with the old school IG or HG 7 speed freehub you can mix and match stuff to put the spool with the right spoke count with the shorter freehub.

    Yes jamming the wheel in will spread the stays but my fear would be that it wasn't squished evenly but rather it was bent more on one side so the wheel would be sitting off center. I'd rather jig up and measure it and then cold set the offending side using the information at Sheldon's site to restore and correct the spacing and offsets of the stays to the proper settings.

    Being an '83 I'd say it would have used either a 5 or 6 speed freewheel setup so if you want to get a 7 speed freehub setup in there then just keep on tweaking and measuring. But there's some offset to consider. The drive side needs to be tweaked out a little further on the new wider wheel setups. I'd have to check to see if this is the case on 7 speed bikes. Certainly on the older 5 and 6 speed stuff the wheels are symetrical and the dish is what compensates for the gearing.

    Here is all you should need to check it out including a setup using string to check the alignment without using a jig...

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

    Once you get it set up be sure to take it to a shop for them to bend and tweak the derrailleur hanger for alignment. After all the tweaking that hanger will definetly be out by a little and mess up the shifting.

    For light touring I think you're going way overboard on the spoke concerns. For less than heavy loaded touring 36 spoke lacings and a slightly wider cyclocross style rim with 28 to 34mm tires is going to be just about bomb proof. But check with the guys in the Touring forum for a final on that aspect. Maybe go with butted spokes for the extra resiliency to shock loads they offer.

    Sounds like a fun project overall. Just try to keep the Unobtanium items out of it and it should go smoothly.
    Model airplanes are cool too!.....

  5. #5
    'roid monkey wannabe AnnaMossity's Avatar
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    I have a custom 2006 Zinn magnesium frame road bike set up for triathlon and a big semi-custom touring bike, the frame of which is a 1983 Apollo Prestige XL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
    HIYA! I didn't notice the location in the first post.... We may have passed each other on the roads here over the years I've been riding.

    The good news for your conversion is that any freehub body and center screw combo will fit onto any Shimano hub so if you can find the hub you want and another with the old school IG or HG 7 speed freehub you can mix and match stuff to put the spool with the right spoke count with the shorter freehub.

    Yes jamming the wheel in will spread the stays but my fear would be that it wasn't squished evenly but rather it was bent more on one side so the wheel would be sitting off center. I'd rather jig up and measure it and then cold set the offending side using the information at Sheldon's site to restore and correct the spacing and offsets of the stays to the proper settings.

    Being an '83 I'd say it would have used either a 5 or 6 speed freewheel setup so if you want to get a 7 speed freehub setup in there then just keep on tweaking and measuring. But there's some offset to consider. The drive side needs to be tweaked out a little further on the new wider wheel setups. I'd have to check to see if this is the case on 7 speed bikes. Certainly on the older 5 and 6 speed stuff the wheels are symetrical and the dish is what compensates for the gearing.

    Here is all you should need to check it out including a setup using string to check the alignment without using a jig...

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

    Once you get it set up be sure to take it to a shop for them to bend and tweak the derrailleur hanger for alignment. After all the tweaking that hanger will definetly be out by a little and mess up the shifting.

    For light touring I think you're going way overboard on the spoke concerns. For less than heavy loaded touring 36 spoke lacings and a slightly wider cyclocross style rim with 28 to 34mm tires is going to be just about bomb proof. But check with the guys in the Touring forum for a final on that aspect. Maybe go with butted spokes for the extra resiliency to shock loads they offer.

    Sounds like a fun project overall. Just try to keep the Unobtanium items out of it and it should go smoothly.
    Hey, you were right, I just measured the dropouts again and they are 115mm apart (crappy tape measure) so I'm sure I can spread 'em to accomodate a 120mm hub (yay! *kazoos blaring*).

    Really, you think my desired wheel specs are overkill? When I say light touring I mean fully loaded but just not doing a lot of rough riding or a lot of off road travel. I'll still have 300 lbs on those axles at times. I figure overkill is better than underkill anyday underkill is bad, very bad! I don't like the idea of having to replace spokes en route..yuck!

  6. #6
    Senior Member BCRider's Avatar
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    The guys in Touring would likely say go more and I'd defer to their opinions. Your "light touring" use of the term got me. What you're talking about is fully loaded road touring. I'd call it that when you ask them and include your expected total gross weight of 300 lbs.
    Model airplanes are cool too!.....

  7. #7
    Year-round cyclist
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    First of all, try to find a shop that sells used bikes or that repairs bikes. In Montréal, we have a couple of them in the central part of the city; I assume that in Vancouver, you should also search downtown (where lots of people bike year round for transportation) rather than in the suburbs.

    Your first thing would be to check your brakes to see if you can lower the pads by 4 mm. If you can, it means you will be able to install 700c wheels. If not, it might be better to modify the brakes or get new ones so you would be able to install 700c wheels.

    Then check used/old stuff.

    For the front wheel, any modern front wheel would work. With modern double-walled rims, you will be OK with 32 spokes.

    IN a downtown store, you may also be able to find a ready-built wheel with the appropriate characteristics. Of all the characteristics, hub is the most important, followed by build, though you could very well buy a wheel and "finish" it properly at home afterwards.

    Regarding the rear hub
    I'm pretty sure you have a frame that was made for 120 mm spacing. If it is steel (I'm 95% sure), it can easily spread to 126 mm, and maybe even to 130 or 135 mm (though it might be a destructive test to find out). If you can go to 126, your best bet would be to find "new old stock": a Shimano hub with a 7-speed freehub. Then install a 7-speed cassette. Apart from being more "modern technology" with parts easier to find down the road, the freehub hub is also much stronger, as explained here (towards the top). With a freehub, bent axle are a thing of the past.
    Michel Gagnon
    Montréal (Québec, Canada)

  8. #8
    Senior Member BCRider's Avatar
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    Good point in the brakes. The good news is that you can get some fanatastic long reach options from Tektro to reach down to the 700c rim walls if you end up going that way. I've recently fitted them to two of my older bikes that had made do with single pivot long reach calipers up until recently. The Tektro dual pivot long reach are SOOOOOO nice. Yeah, you won't get them used for cheap but this is one place I wouldn't compromise. Buy new and relish the braking power they give you. And you'll want that if you're long hauling a big load down a steep hill.
    Model airplanes are cool too!.....

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michel Gagnon View Post
    If it is steel (I'm 95% sure), it can easily spread to 126 mm, and maybe even to 130 or 135 mm (though it might be a destructive test to find out). If you can go to 126, your best bet would be to find "new old stock": a Shimano hub with a 7-speed freehub. Then install a 7-speed cassette. Apart from being more "modern technology" with parts easier to find down the road, the freehub hub is also much stronger, as explained here (towards the top). With a freehub, bent axle are a thing of the past.
    Very nice thinking!!

    If a freewheel is OK with you, and you are willing to spend lots of dollars on a beautiful and tough hub for touring, Phil Wood makes road freewheel hubs as narrow as 120 mm. You can also get 126, 130, 135 (not to mention cassettes in 130 and 135, though these are really costly). Phil Wood's commitment to backwards compatibility in dimensions is one of the reasons I like that company so much.

    Imagining the possible struggle later with service and replacing parts, though, makes Michel's idea seem more enticing than this.
    Last edited by FLYcrash; 07-10-08 at 01:00 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Benjamino's Avatar
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    I've heard that the "Bike Barn" at UBC is a great place to find older parts for your bike (cheaper that OCB). I haven't been there (yet) so I can't say for sure. I've also had good, honest advice from Bikes on the Drive. Nothing too helpful here, I just wanted to get in on the Vancouver action.

  11. #11
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michel Gagnon View Post
    <snip>
    I'm pretty sure you have a frame that was made for 120 mm spacing. If it is steel (I'm 95% sure), it can easily spread to 126 mm, and maybe even to 130 or 135 mm (though it might be a destructive test to find out).
    Spreading the stays to 135mm shouldn't be a problem. Kuwahara bikes of that era were decent thickness steel- not the paper-thin stuff some bikes are today. I've aligned frames (using the string-and-tape-measure method) that were off by more than that, and they came out fine. Make sure you align the dropouts afterwards.

    Jeff
    Jeff Wills

    All my bikes.

  12. #12
    'roid monkey wannabe AnnaMossity's Avatar
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    Allright well thanks for the help guys. I ordered some 700c Velocity Dyad rims, DT Swiss 2.00mm spokes and Shimano 105 hubs 36 spoke front and rear. I'm going to spread the stays myself and align the dropouts as suggested. I'm just stripping the paint off the frame right now (tough job with only Canadian Tire Paint Remover and sandpaper) then I'll do the cold forging before painting just so I can see what happens to the welds/joints when I bend it. Our Community Bikes has crap equipment for the most part so I'm just going to put new components on this bike. I figure most of it is pretty essential stuff anyways so might as well spend the $$. Hopefully this bike will work well enough that I won't have to drop mad cheddar on a custom expedition touring bike.

    Thanks again for all your suggestions and comments.

    AM

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