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  1. #1
    The Legitimiser Sammyboy's Avatar
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    "Make sure the nipples are seated in the rim" - Ok, but how?

    I'm building my first wheel, and I've already dismantled and relaced it once because of this problem. It's much better now, but I'm still struggling. First off, let me just say that I'm all too aware (and becoming more aware all the time), that a 4x 20" 48 spoke wheel on deep section rims was not the easiest thing I could've chosen for my first build, but I'm an idiot, and here we are anyway.

    Essentially, I'm now installing the leading spokes, and I've reached a point where whilst the spoke still reaches the nipple, a combination of the break angle and the fact that not all the nipples are completely seated means that whilst the spokes will reach the nipples, I can't get the threads to engage. Sheldon says "make sure the leading spoke nipples are fully seated". Well, I've been trying to do that all the way along, but not quite succeeded, and now I don't know how to. I've tried to do it by manipulating the hub, and that did enough for a while, but I've reached a point where I can't get any further. Can anyone suggest what to do next? You can see the problem in the pic below, I think:

    It's not altogether clear, but the trailing spokes you can see, where the whole of the nipple is exposed, aren't actually engaged, whilst on the leading spoke in between, the nipple is raised into the rim cavity.


  2. #2
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    Is that a DeepV rim by any chance? And since you mentioned Sheldon Brown, can I assume you're following his wheelbuilding tutorial? If so, and you're following the instructions to letter (key spoke immediately to the right of the valve hole), you will end up with the nipples pointing in the wrong direction on a DeepV. I had the same problem recently. And the way your spokes curve into the nipples looks suspiciously familiar.

    If you're going by Sheldon's tutorial, you may need to start with the key spoke on the second hole away from the valve hole. Sheldon's instructions cover this situation quite well, he just doesn't go into a lot of detail on how you figure out which side of the hub a particular nipple hole is meant for. I believe that his guidelines for determining this apply mainly to box section rims. With deep section rims it's trickier.

    On many deep section rims the nipple holes are drilled at an angle, pointing alternately to one hub flange and then the other. When a rim is drilled this way, the holes on the rim tape side end up staggered to the opposite side of the rim from the hub flange they're intended for. In other words, a hole on the left is actually pointing to the right-side flange, at least on the DeepV. Again, I believe Sheldon's tutorial implicitly assumes a box section rim, because they generally have the spoke holes on the same side as the intended flange. It's easy to make this mistake if you aren't aware of the issue. Roger Musson's wheelbuilding book (highly recommended) covers this.

    One thing you can do to be sure is to drop a nipple into a hole and loosely attach a spoke. Wiggle it around a little bit and you should be able to feel the natural line of the drilling.

  3. #3
    Senior Member BCRider's Avatar
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    It's maybe not clear in the picture but it seems to me that you've done the nipples up on the leading spokes to where the threads are almost already buried. I'd suggest you back them off if you did this and leave all the nipples just two or three turns onto the spoke until it's all laced. This means you'll be working with a very floppy wheel at first but one that the hub will comply with adding those last few spokes that much easier. Then you'll want to work your way around the spokes screwing them on a few turns at a time so it slowly and evenly removes the slack and finally starts to tighten up in an even a manner as possible. If they are already this loose then you may want to go back and study your spoke crossings to make sure it's truly meeting the right lacing pattern. It's easy to mess up when the spokes are all loose and flopping around.
    Model airplanes are cool too!.....

  4. #4
    The Legitimiser Sammyboy's Avatar
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    Thanks Metaluna - what you're saying makes sense. It's an Aeroheat, but it's the nearest thing to a Deep - V in 20". I'll check, but I think you've probably caught the problem, which means I have to unlace and start again, AGAIN, but at least I'll get there. Thankyou!

    BCRider - I've only tightened them all the way down in this part of the wheel, because I was hoping I could pull the hub into position so that I could get the spokes in. It didn't work. Otherwise, I was following the way you suggest. Thankyou though - what you suggest makes sense based on the picture.

  5. #5
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    Hi Sammy

    When things get that bad you can be fairly certain it's laced wrong and this is the case with your wheel. Go and study an already built cross laced wheel (doesn't matter how many spokes or crossings) and you'll see yours is different. So you'll have to completely take it apart and start again.

    Edit: Use the valve hole as a reference point when comparing with a good wheel.

    I don't envy you doing a 48 BMX.

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    Last edited by roger-m; 07-25-08 at 01:34 AM.

  6. #6
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    That picture about sure looks SCARY!

    Anywhoo, when yer done, post another picture again, we'll be more than happy to give the final "eyeballing" 4u.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-m View Post
    ...doesn't matter how many spokes or crossings
    I beg to differ. No of spokes isn't that important, but unless your reference wheel has the same number of crossings it'll be really difficult to learn something from the comparison.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabac View Post
    I beg to differ. No of spokes isn't that important, but unless your reference wheel has the same number of crossings it'll be really difficult to learn something from the comparison.
    Crossings make no difference. You are looking at the relative positions the spokes are taking and this doesn't change with crossings. Here's a BMX 36 hole 2 cross wheel photographed similar to the OP.



    Note, the reason it's 2 cross is because it's a very non standard build. I'm using a very large flanged hub and even with 2 cross the spoke angles into the rim are fairly accute. The wheels are for a university car project.

    --
    Roger

  9. #9
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    Crossings do make a difference. If I'm building a 3X then there'll be 6 holes(or spokes) between the spokes that leave the hub roughly parallel to each other, but if I'm building 2X there are only 4 spokes(or holes) between spokes "parallel" to each other. Looking at the angle out by the rim may indicate that there's something wrong but isn't much help in sorting out which spoke should go where.

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