angelaharms

Hello, bike geniuses. I'm sorry this is long, but I could really use some help.

I have a Trek Sole Ride. The picture above shows the bike with no rear brake, for some reason... but there is one. It's this kind. And the problem is that rear brake.

When I got the bike, the right brake lever on the handlebar was a bit mushy. I knew nothing about brakes at the time, so I asked the guy at LBS about it, and believed him when he said "sometimes they're just like that." Gradually, it got worse, and eventually wouldn't stop the bike at all. I took it back to LBS, and that's when the nightmare started.

The brakes apparently had two settings: 1) dragging, and 2) unable to stop the bike. Five professionals "fixed" it before I finally started hacking it myself. (Now I know a little about brakes!) Each repair resulted in the pads dragging against the rim, if not immediately, then within a few minutes of starting to ride.

I have done (and LBSes have done0 all these things:
Adjusted the brakes
Adjusted the tension springs
Moved the pads around
Replaced the cable
Replaced the pads
Replaced them again
Shaved part of the rubber off the pads
Attached the long brake cable to the frame with zip ties (under LBS supervision)
Cleaned the metal parts of the brake, but on the bike, without taking them apart.

Things have gradually improved. But again tonight I had to disconnect the brake to ride home. (Because of the disability, I can't ride if it's rubbing. I'm not strong enough.)

Here come the pictures, and more specifics. Sorry the pics are crud. I took them at night, with flash, and had our garage open in the background! Sheesh.



Here's the rear brake:


And here's the most interesting part (currently). This next picture is of the rear brake from the top. I took the seat off so I could take the picture from right above. See how it looks lopsided? It is lopsided. The best luck I've had has been tightening one spring all the way, and loosening the other all the way. In that condition, at times, the brake has worked. But then I had to increase the tension on the tight side even more by bending the spring wire. And now that's not enough either.



A week ago, I'd have said with a decent amount of certainty that the problem was that the brake didn't spring open well enough when I released the lever. And that's true. Once I used it, it would drag until I reached down and pressed on it with my finger to push it to the side. But that's not enough now. Now, I can hold it over to the side with my finger and get the wheel to spin (while I'm standing next to it, not on it) but it won't stay in that position.

I hope this made sense. I've tried to explain it as well as I can. I'll be very grateful for any advice y'all can offer.

BCRider

In your second picture the arms are way out of balance. Is this because on arm is dragging on the rim or because the rim is highly offset in the frame?

If it's because the arm doesn't want to return and it's dragging on the side of the rim then it's very likely due to the arm sticking on the internal sleeve. On these brakes the arm does not pivot on the pin that is in the frame. Instead there's a sleeve that the bolt holds in place and the arm pivots on that sleeve. If that sleeve is tweaked so it is distorted then all the return spring juggling and fussing in the world won't make it work right. If the bike is new the brakes (both sides) should be replaced under warranty since the mechanics have already done all the "usual" things. If it is used then without someone that knows what to look for and fix it you're best bet would be to just get the brakes replaced. Basic V brakes are cheap.

If I'm wrong about all this and the wheel is just offset radically then you need to get the dish of the rear wheel adjusted. It's grossly out of whack!. However since your issue is the brakes I'm guessing that the brake on the right had side of the bike that is shown being further in than the other side is dragging on the rim at this point. So that brings us back to digging more deeply into the sleeve to find out why it's dragging or just replace that side or both sides.

But be sure they move the Koolstop salmon pads over for you. Those are more valuable than the arms themselves.. maybe not in cost but certainly for function.

angelaharms

Ok, so new brakes, and by that you mean the metal part, right? The arms that attach to the bike? This will be a fun project. :-D

I shaved some rubber off the pads in a (temporarily successful) effort to stop some of the dragging. I think I better buy new ones. That's a good brand, huh?

So why didn't any of the pro bike guys at LBS1, LBS2, LBS3... know about this?

DannoXYZ 

To balance the spring-preload on the arms, take the pivot-bolt off completely and pull the arms off the posts. You'll find 3 holes next to the posts where the spring sits. Make sure both sides have the springs in the same hole. Some brakes also have adjustment inside the arms themselves with 3 holes to seat the spring. Make sure both sides are identical mirror images of each other (3 holes x 3 holes = 9 possible combinations, only 1 is correct).

Also if you are relying on the rear brakes to stop the bike quickly, you are sorely mistaken. Learn to use the front brake aggressively by straightening your arms and pushing your butt off the rear of the bike and lowering your upper body until your belly lays on the seat. You can go from 30mph to stop in less than 40ft easily. With rear-brakes only, you're looking at about 150ft+.

Litespeedlouie

Right, your springs are out of balance. Once you pull them off the posts, my guess is that the spring ends are either not in the same holes under the pivot, or one of them is not in a hole at all, or a spring is broken. They should be pretty close spring force even before adjusting the balancing screws.

We assume the wheel is true, and the levers pivot freely. The Tektro service PDF shows the assembly: https://www.tektro.com/04support/pdf/...20brakesC1.pdf

angelaharms

Ok, wait. The arms are lopsided -- the springs out of balance -- because that's what it takes to make the brakes not rub. I can adjust things so they're not. It's just that then the brake pad on one side rubs the rim.

BCRider

Angela, I'd like to think that the local shop mechanics can at least get the pins on the brake arms into the right holes. I may be mistaken but I'd hope not. That's pretty basic. Mind you when I hear about these same mechanics shaving pad material off to hopefully create a gap to the rim I have to wonder.

If you take off the cable the arms should spring outward freely when you let them go. If they don't do this smoothly and with a snap to them then I think that one of the arms is dragging as I suggested above. The idea of the springs and balance set screws is to make it so that the arms retract away from the rim equally on both sides. But this balance of spring efforts to achieve equal movement relies very much on equal drag of the arms on those pivot sleeves. Some damage, corrosion or a build up of grit over the years will prevent this matching of arm motion and a dragging pad is the result.

angelaharms

First, I have to say that *I* am the one who shaved the rubber off. And it worked for a while.

I think you must be right, that it's the arms sticking. I am not sure... they do open up when I release the cable, but I don't know if they do it smoothly or not.

Any idea why I have to adjust them to such a lopsided condition to make them not rub?

I suppose even if the mystery isn't solved, redoing the whole brakes will probably work, huh?

By the way, the wheel isn't quite true. It was, until one of the LBS guys, who was very arrogant about his ability to solve this problem after others had failed, "trued" it. Now it's off. But not enough to cause all this. (He ended up saying that it was the bike's fault, because of the long cable needed to reach the back brake.)

This problem has been *so* frustrating. I appreciate your thinking about it with me.

angelaharms

P.S. I think the bike wasn't made for those long brake pads. The tail rubbed; that's the part I shaved. There really wasn't a way to get those long pads to fit at an angle that would keep them from rubbing. At least, *I* couldn't get them to, and arrogant LBS guy *didn't.* He put them on and sent me off with rubbing brakes.

BCRider

Ah... you shaved off the corners so they wouldn't rub on the tires then? I was thinking you shaved off part of the face of the pad.

So these are small wheels as well? I assumed they were 26 inch mountain bike wheels. But yeah, if we're looking at 24 or 20 inch wheels then that is a horse of a different color. Long V brake pads WOULD rub on the ends when trying to use the long Thinline V brake pads.

Unless there's something odd with the frame where the stays are lopsided to allow for some aspect of the drive train then your two brake arms should be even on each side when they are sprung out evenly spaced from the rim's brake tracks. If you center and equalize the arms by hand and they stay in place and then pull the brake lever and one side stays in by the rim and doesn't retract than that arm is sticking. If you try to center and equalize the two arms and when you let go the arms spring to the position shown (or near to it) then that is a spring issue. One of the return springs is stronger than the other. If this is the case I'd say a full new set of arms is probably the cheapest cure given that your arrogant guy couldn't help out with a proper analysis and cure.

My analysis may be off too. I've only got what you've shown and told us to work with. But at the very least I'd suggest going to a new shop where the mechanic subscribes to that truism "the more I know the more I realize I don't know....".

cudak888 

Not sure if anyone asked this yet, but were the spacers installed in reverse order on one of the pads in addition to everything else, by any chance?

-Kurt

lbear

angelaharms - Check out https://bicycletutor.com "How to adjust V Brakes".

Rob P.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the cable. Rear cable housings can cause a lot of drag because of the length of the housing. This means that the rear brakes don't return to rest as quickly or easily as the front ones do. You appear to have have a one-piece housing from lever to brake which means it's really really long too.

Once a cable gets dirty inside it starts to get really sticky and can cause the brakes to drag.
It also starts to feel "mushy" which was also one of your complaints.

I would disassemble/clean/reassemble and adjust the brakes arms. (Check the lever for dirt/rust/binding too.) Then I would pull the inner cable from the housing and lightly lube it (wipe with chain lube on rag) IF it's rusty/dirty/gunky you've likely found your problem. If it won't work well after lubing, then replace the cable/housing with a quality one. Stainless steel is nice as are the ones with a coating on the wire to reduce friction.

I would also look at the cable routing to be sure that the curves are not too tight of a bend.

operator

The first thing you need to do is reset the rear wheel QR/nuts to ensure it's sitting in the dropouts correctly, then see whether or not it's the

1) dish
or
2) brake system

That is causing the problem.

angelaharms

I did check the wheel. It's in the grooves.

What's a dish?

angelaharms

Nah, BCRider, they're 26. Let me try again. I couldn't get the brake pads to sit parallel to the rim, and the LBS guy *didn't* get them to, so the tail dragged, even when there was good spacing otherwise. I shaved part of the face at the tail, which leaves the middle doing the braking. (God, it feels stupid admitting that, but it *did* work, for a while.)

So, to be clear, the way the arms got lopsided is basically this:

I got the bike back from the latest LBS, who said "Ok, it's fixed." It started rubbing again. I adjusted it. It worked, for a while. Then, it started rubbing again. I adjusted, it worked, then it started rubbing again. And so on. Eventually, they started to look lopsided. But each time the adjustment lasted longer and longer. Now it's rubbing again, and there's no more adjusting I can do.

Angela

BCRider

Angela, "dish" is the way the spokes hold the rim in relation to the hub. When someone asks if the "dish" or "dishing" is right they are actually asking if the rim is centered in the bike frame. You can check that for yourself by measuring with a ruler between the brake track of the rim and the seat stays (the upper two thin legs that connect the main frame to the rear axle). When the dish is correct the spacing to the stays should be the same on both sides. If you spin the wheel the rim should stay centered in this opening and not wobble, or at least not wobble much, side to side.

Back to the brakes that from the sounds of it seems to be the real issue.

Try pushing the arms back so they are centered with equal gaps to the rim on both sides. Do they stay there? Now pull the brake lever and release while looking at the arms. Does one move and the other stay stuck so it's rubbing? If it does then the one that didn't move is sticking. And from the sounds of what you described in your last post I think this will be the case.

OK, now we get down and dirty. Unhook the cable noodle so the arms spring outward. Shield off the rim and brake pad on that side with a plastic bag so that the mounting screw and lower portion is still visible. Hose the pivot area down with some WD40 and have a paper towel or two ready to wipe off the WD that runs down the stay before it gets too far. Wiggle the brake arm back and forth and side to side aggresively. Hose it down and wiggle two or three more times. Some black goop may wash out of the pivot. That's a good thing. If you get that and the arm seems to be loosening up so it springs outward with more snap then keep repeating the WD and wiggle campaign until it doesn't get any better. Once it's got a good snappy motion to it rehook the brake noodle into the holder and try your brakes out.

Likely you'll need to re-adjust the tension to balance the outward return again. If they are working well now then I'd clean the other side the same way. Follow up on all this with some oil dribbled on the pivot point and wiggled into the bushing in the same manner as you did with the WD. Wipe off all the leaking stuff one last time, re-adjust the tension screws one last time so the arms return equally and the pads are equally spaced. Smile at a job well done.

Total tools needed- a phillips or flat blade screwdriver to fit the tension screws, can of WD40, plastic bag or two and some paper towels.

If the right hand side arm refuses to loosen up from this treatment then some part of the sleeve or arm was damaged in some way and you've got a hard metal to metal binding going on. In that case as I mentioned before a new set of brakes would be the best way to cure this unless the shop guy AT THE NEW STORE says he can strip and fix the arm for you for less than the cost of a new set of V brakes.

angelaharms

I can't wait to get outside and get my hands dirty (again). Thanks so much for all the instructions.

I'm sorry to be a pain, but I have a question... Did you mean I should cover the tire and rim with plastic and also cover the little brake pad with a tiny plastic bag? Could I take the pads off instead?

By the way, did you understand about the shaving this time? I think the phrase is "toeing in" (learned that from the bike tutor video).

And, if I haven't said it enough, THANK YOU!

Angela

TimJ

+1

If you haven't checked this out, do. The brakes are so far lopsided it almost seems like they couldn't rub unless the spacers were different on either side.

Litespeedlouie

The pads could also be defective, as in bent mounting studs. This may have been on purpose to calm squeal. Also, the arm mount for the pads could be bent (far less likely). Carefully take both arms off and compare them and the way they were mounted. They should be symetrical.

supcom

The simple solution to this problem is to replace the Tektro brakes with some Avid brakes. Setting up and adjusting V-brakes is a simple procedure and the fact that the bike shop has no been able to do it successfully is a good sign that these brakes are poor products. A set of Avid Single Digit V-brakes can be purchased inexpensively and should be much less trouble.

BCRider

I never mentioned the spacers before since I'd like to THINK that even the obnoxious mechanic would at least know to check for that simple item. But I guess we shouldn't assume anything. Do check that the same thickness spacers are used on the same sides so that the pads are mounted identically.

Yes, you can remove the pads and that would make it easier in terms of masking the wheel and pads from WD overspray. Whichever way you find is easier for yourself.

Again though, your last post about the situation continually worsening suggests a stick pivot that is getting worse all the time. The nice thing is that if the flushing out fixes it you'll have a new skill and can better analyze your brakes for next time.

angelaharms

Oh, I should have answered that earlier. I knew the spacers matched, because I'm the one that put them on last. And now they match again, because I changed them again.

I tried spraying the arms, and they still stuck. I decided that I'd take the dang brakes off, and get new ones. Took the left one off, and then when I took the right one off, I looked down inside at the brass bushing and it had *gunk!* So, I'm cleaning it out and putting it back on. I'll let you know how it goes.

angelaharms

Thanks! I was thinking I'd better start asking what kind to buy.

BCRider

But gunk in the inside of the part that comes off the pin on the frame is not where it matters. What you're looking at is the inside of the sleeve that gets pinched normally and the arm move on the outside of THAT part.

When you take off the bolt and the washer under the bolt and remove the arm on the end of the hole for the bolt there's a second washer that has four fingers on it. Gently pry that off and you'll find that the arm will now slide off the inner bushing. It's on the outside of that bushing and the inside of the pressed in bushing on the arm that you need to clean.