Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-20-08, 01:29 AM   #1
lukeC
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Cracked Frame: Seat Stay - Seat Post Join. Can it be fixed?

Hey, I was just riding my bicycle yesterday when it started 'squeaking' I didn't think much of it until the afternoon when I looked a bit closer and realised that the frame is cracked all the way through.

I"m not sure how/when this happened, but I'm not too keen on riding it now I know its there. 'catastrophic failure' comes to mind.

Here's a Photo:



So its an Old Raleigh 'Criterium 12 / Triathlon frame I got second hand about a year ago. Can this be fixed? Welded back together or something? Its Reynolds 501 Tubing (or at least some of it is).

I"m located in London, UK so any advice on where I can get it fixed would also be appreciated.
The Bike:



The Crack:



A couple more photos here:
http://lukecollison.com/bike/

-

I"d prefer to just fix the frame cheaply as I just had another bicycle stolen in London (TRek 5.3 FX) and It seems inevitable here that it will happen again. Hence I"d like to fix this up, to ride for 6 months before its stolen as well.

Or I guess replace the frame. but that involves more work, moving all the bits and bobs over to a new frame. And I"m lazy, and need something to ride to work each day.

Last edited by lukeC; 08-20-08 at 01:52 AM.
lukeC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 01:33 AM   #2
BCRider
Senior Member
 
BCRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The 'Wack, BC, Canada
Bikes: Norco (2), Miyata, Canondale, Soma, Redline
Posts: 5,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It'll require some damage to the paint but you can get that brazed back together and it'll be fine. But the paint for about 3 inches away all around the crack will need to be removed prior to the brazing work
BCRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 01:40 AM   #3
lukeC
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Where would I do that? get it brazed back together? And do I need to strip the bike to do that?

I"m not fussed about the paint. Its an old knocked up bike anyway. What are the approximate costs of fixing it?

Last edited by lukeC; 08-20-08 at 01:50 AM. Reason: adding details
lukeC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 05:55 AM   #4
kellyjdrummer
Guest
 
Bikes:
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
You don't braze (brass welding) aluminum'to start with. You would have to "electro weld" it. TIG or MIG would be one solution.

You don't think you could migrate all those parts in a day?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 06:20 AM   #5
familyguy
Running on plenty
 
familyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Bikes: Too many to list
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OP bike is not aluminium, its steel, right?? Braze it.

A fix might depend on how severely it is cracked. A good repairer can tell you pretty quickly.

Jim
familyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 06:42 AM   #6
nitropowered
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens, Ohio
Bikes: Custom Custom Custom
Posts: 5,104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That thing is steel. It can be easily brazed back and then you will probably have to ream out the seattube so the post will fit back in
nitropowered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 06:51 AM   #7
ochizon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would tig it anyway, but brazing should hold.
ochizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 06:53 AM   #8
kellyjdrummer
Guest
 
Bikes:
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
I read "Reynolds 501 Tubing" and assumed it was Al.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 06:53 AM   #9
lukeC
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Its a Cromo-Steel frame

Its a Reynold 501 Cromoly steel frame - not an Aluminium frame.

What is the cost for the brazings etc? - is it going to be cost efficient to have it fixed up?

its not a particularly classy frame. It only cost me 50.00 so i don't want to spend more than that on repairing the frame.
lukeC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 08:04 AM   #10
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 28,917
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Check with an LBS in your area for a recommend local frame builder to do the repair.

There is no way we can estimate the cost from here but if you describe the problem the builder can give you a good estimate. Do you have a "Yellow Pages" phone book? There should be listings for "Bicycle Repair" and perhaps a frame builder is included.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 08:18 AM   #11
spider-man
Ferrous wheel
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Orleans
Bikes: 2004 Gunnar Rock Hound MTB; 1988 Gitane Team Pro road bike; 1986-ish Raleigh USA Grand Prix; mid-'80s Univega Gran Tourismo with Xtracycle Free Radical
Posts: 1,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Definitely is steel, definitely is repairable, definitely should be rebrazed. I would take it into the LBS, and if they can't fix it, they should be able to direct you to someone who can.
spider-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 11:33 AM   #12
MichaelW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: England
Bikes:
Posts: 12,926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Its whether the repair is cost effective; certainly not if you go with a premium framebuilder.
Try Bicycle Workshop in Notting Hill or Kiwi Bikes.
London Cycling Campaign may know.
501 is pretty thick and unbutted so it may be worth learning to wield a brazing torch tourself.
MichaelW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 11:58 AM   #13
G piny parnas
messenger
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: WLA
Bikes: pinarellos and a colnago
Posts: 599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Tri Ti

ya -- braze it--- but weld a stress rod too---- are you, well, kinda heavy--- looks like a single speed--- are you a messenger--- get a Ti frame!
G piny parnas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 12:45 PM   #14
lukeC
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have emailed kiwicycles and will try this Bicycle workshop lot.

I'm about 80-85kg, 182cm tall. so not particularly heavy.
I bought it on gumtree about 8 months ago. I think the fault may have been there for a while and i'd not noticed it. I rode it for a few months and then was riding another bike lately, until it was stolen.

And yeah its set up as a single speed - gears are over-rated in London. (its so flat here + all the traffic lights its not necessary).

I just had a different and more expensive bike stolen a few weeks ago, so I"m in a bit of a "dont' spend money on bikes they just get stolen" frame of mind. Hence i'm looking for a cheap fix.

oh and I"m not a messenger but I do work in The City

I was told today by someone in E1 Cycles down near Aldgate that it can't be fixed - but I don't think he knows much about bicycles.
lukeC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 02:51 PM   #15
chris101
another member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: near Stoke-on-Trent, U.K.
Bikes:
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you do the prep work yourself I'm sure you'll be able to find a metal workshop somewhere that'll braze it together for the cost of a few pints of ale, if you were 150 miles north of London I could point you in the direction of one such specialist who'd do it for next to nothing. No need to Tig weld it, brazing can be incredibly strong if done properly.
chris101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 02:55 PM   #16
GV27
Light Makes Right
 
GV27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Green Mountain, Colorado
Bikes: Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
Posts: 1,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't think you can weld 501, just braze it.

Mercian in Derby will fit a whole new seat stay for 55.00 but I would guess they could do it simpler and cheaper than that, however. Talk to them. If they put a new seat stay on it it'll be better than new.

Of course they're a LONG way from you and I don't know how much shipping would be but I bet they could recommend someone in London.

http://www.merciancycles.com/renovation.asp

Last edited by GV27; 08-20-08 at 03:00 PM.
GV27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 08:39 PM   #17
BCRider
Senior Member
 
BCRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The 'Wack, BC, Canada
Bikes: Norco (2), Miyata, Canondale, Soma, Redline
Posts: 5,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Luke, search your area for a general welding shop. Call them and ask if they do silver soldering and brazing or only welding.

MOST brazed frames were done using a lower temperature alloy or a higher temperature silver braze. Either way be sure to advise the guy running the torch that the joint holding the end tab is likely brazed on with a lower temperature type of brazing or silver brazing so he can alter what he uses accordingly.

And if you can do your own cleanup by removing the paint for about 3 to 4 inches all around where the joint will need to be brazed you'll save some money since the guy doing the job won't need to do it for you. Especially wire brush away any signs of rust at the crack. But don't use abrasives that will alter the joint itself.

A quick job like this shouldn't cost much at all. In fact if you show up right near quiting time on a Friday with a 6 pack under your left arm you may not need to spend anything else.

As for strippign the bike as long as you can remove the seat post and unmount the brake cable to move the burnable stuff well away from the worksite you'll be fine. In fact clean out the seat tube and post so they are not greasy and take it to the shop "dry" with the metal cleaned. Once brazed you can re-insert the post and re-mount the cable and ride home. Some badly matching paint to protect the metal from rust and you'll have a nice cobbly looking frame that no self respecting bike thief would be seen dead on..... Mind you I can't help you with the non self respecting thieves that just want to ride your bike to the other side of town and then dump it....
BCRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-08, 09:18 PM   #18
CHenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Bikes: A bunch
Posts: 892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ochizon View Post
I would tig it anyway, but brazing should hold.
Agree, it would probably be faster and hold well. The break being through tip of the seatstay, not at the brazed joint but at what appears to be a break in the steel through a previously corroded area, maybe a crack. I am sure a bronze mass around the cleaned up edges would work too, but might require more filing.
CHenry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-08, 06:48 AM   #19
GV27
Light Makes Right
 
GV27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Green Mountain, Colorado
Bikes: Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
Posts: 1,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you tig weld it, aren't you going to have a cascade effect where welding the stay back together will melt the brazing where it's brazed to the lug? Then if you tig it there you'll melt the brazing for the whole lug and have to weld that, then the stay on the other side for the same reason?
GV27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-08, 08:17 AM   #20
mhuntwork
Member
 
mhuntwork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Bikes: 2008 FX 7.3
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
I don't think you can weld 501, just braze it.

Mercian in Derby will fit a whole new seat stay for 55.00 but I would guess they could do it simpler and cheaper than that, however. Talk to them. If they put a new seat stay on it it'll be better than new.

Of course they're a LONG way from you and I don't know how much shipping would be but I bet they could recommend someone in London.

http://www.merciancycles.com/renovation.asp
You can weld Chromoly. TIG weld with chromoly filler rod like stated below. You can't MIG or stick with CS is all.
mhuntwork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-08, 08:18 AM   #21
CHenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Bikes: A bunch
Posts: 892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
If you tig weld it, aren't you going to have a cascade effect where welding the stay back together will melt the brazing where it's brazed to the lug? Then if you tig it there you'll melt the brazing for the whole lug and have to weld that, then the stay on the other side for the same reason?
Maybe with the brass at the broken tip of the seat stay, there isn't that much steel on that small broken bit. You will definitely have to be careful and use a heat sink. I don't know about melting all the old brass in the entire seat lug. Even with a TIG arc, that might take a bit of time. The whole idea of TIG is taking very little time and limiting the work to the break.
CHenry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-08, 08:56 AM   #22
lukeC
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for all the tips and recommendations.

Mercian are a bit far away i think. - I also found somewhere in Lincolnshire who would do it for 40. btu again they are hours away. (and I don't own a car).


So if I clean it up myself: remove the paint from the area - using metal brush did you say?
And find a local welding place that can do silver soldering and brazing - perhaps they can fix it up for me quick smart?

how is that bit all held together anyway? The crack is a bit odd looking - ie is it the steel tubing that has broken?
lukeC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-08, 09:36 AM   #23
San Rensho 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
I wouldn't try brazing that. If the crack is in solid metal, have someone try arc welding it. Torch welding will only melt the solder in the whole seat tube cluster and everything will fall apart.

Arc welding may well heat it up too much also, but a welder that is quick with a small amount of weld material should be able to do it.
__________________
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
San Rensho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-08, 09:46 AM   #24
BikingGrad80
that bike nut
 
BikingGrad80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago north
Bikes: 2010 Motobecane Immortal Force 90' Trek 1400; 90' Trek 850; 06' Trek 520; 01 Iron Horse Victory
Posts: 934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
I'd say that frame's day is over and it isn't worth the trouble. It looks very rusty on the inside. You could spend $100 fixing it only to have it fail somewhere else a week later. I'd say buy a new frame or get a cheap used one off ebay.
BikingGrad80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-08, 10:20 AM   #25
Crank57
Senior Member
 
Crank57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Bikes: Giant OCR2, FCR2, Cypress
Posts: 176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Most of those 501 Cro Mo steel tube frames were only Cro Mo in the main triangle. The seat stays were usually regular carbon steel, or a little better, Hi Tensile steel. The material they put this together with was silver solder, sil-phos, or bronze brazing alloy. It would be very difficult to weld this together due to contamination of all the steel with the brazing alloy in the area. Also, most welding shops will not be skilled at welding such thin tubing, even if it were not contaminated. On the other hand, any trade shop that works with thin sheet material should have the skills needed. These would include auto body shops, radiator/muffler shops and some plumbers who work with silver soldered copper and of course bike shops.

I don't know what type stores you have over there, but here in the states I could purchase a MAPP gas torch and flux and Sil-Phos brazing rods for about $35 to $50 in a building supply store or an auto parts store and do it myself. Of course, I'm a tool junkie so I always look at doing things myself if it's an opportunity to buy some tools involved.

If I got this done at a body shop or bikeshop or similar it would cost about the same.

Most important thing about brazing this together is clean out the joint with a good stiff steel wire brush.
Crank57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:00 PM.