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Old 08-21-08, 08:36 AM   #1
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How keep round spokes from twist while re-trueing?

Hi

With bladed spokes its pretty easy, at least with the specific DT Swiss tool.
But how do it with round spokes? (DT competition/revolution)

To visualise the movement is quite easy, a peace of adhesive tape would do the trick, but prevent it?
Im not talking about building wheels, just trueing them after some use when needed.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 08-21-08, 08:46 AM   #2
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you don't prevent it, you compensate for it.

or...

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Old 08-21-08, 08:50 AM   #3
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It takes a little practice, but the common trick is to turn the nipple a little more than you really intend to, keep an eye on how much the spoke twists, and then turn the nipple back in the opposite direction a little until the spoke untwists.

So if you wanted to tighten by 1/2 turn, you might do 3/4 turn, and then back off by 1/4 turn. How far you have to overshoot and back off can vary from spoke to spoke, and will be affected by how well the spoke threads were lubricated, how thin the spoke is, and how much tension there is in the spoke already. Putting tape on the spokes will certainly help. I'm too lazy to do that so I usually just try to find a feature on the spoke I can keep track of, like a speck of dirt.
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Old 08-21-08, 08:54 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
you don't prevent it, you compensate for it.
Agreed. I hold the spoke between the thumb and forefinger of my left hand and feel for the twist, then twist it back to compensate. The twist of a spoke will be very subtle. More than about 1/16 of a turn would be a lot.
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Old 08-21-08, 09:07 AM   #5
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you don't prevent it, you compensate for it.

or...

Nice tool!
Wonder if I can put the fingers of one.

About compensating its clear. WIth the thin DT Revo Im concerned that the spoke would twist too much and even break.

With the DT aero lite (with pro-lock nipples which I WONT use with the revos) it wont be possible to true anythig w/o the specific spoke holder: nipple and spoke would just move as one.
Im concerned about the new wheels I just ordered.
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Old 08-21-08, 09:26 AM   #6
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http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tools/wheel.html
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This is a modified 4th hand, designed to grip the spoke shaft near the nipple, preventing wind-up (spoke twist) that can lead to unreliable wheels. This tool is a big help with extra-thin spokes, such as the DT Revolution.
I'm going to have to look at my 4th hand tool and see if it will work without modification.
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Old 08-21-08, 09:31 AM   #7
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Turn the spoke just a bit in the opposite direction that you intend to turn it to loosen it up, then go in the direction you intended. For example, if you want to tighten a spoke, loosen it just a bit till you feel it give, then tighten.

This is one of the main reasons you always LUBRICATE, not loctite, spokes, so you can get them to move again when the time comes to true the wheel.
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Old 08-21-08, 09:57 AM   #8
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This is one of the main reasons you always LUBRICATE, not loctite, spokes, so you can get them to move again when the time comes to true the wheel.

I take it you're not a proponent of using Linseed oil to lubricate the spokes then during a wheelbuild. One book I have mentions it and states that it eventually dries and acts as a threadlock, assuming I remember what I read correctly.

(I got "corrected" once on a web site by Jobst Brandt for misquoting something from his book, don't want that to happen again. Note, the linseed oil idea was not from his book. Shoot, he's going to zing me again now.)
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Old 08-21-08, 10:38 AM   #9
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Well you do want to use some sort of lubricant on the shoulder of the nipple (where it contacts the rim) I use Buzzy's Slick Honey for that, and Loctite blue for threadlocking. Though I have used linseed oil. I found that Loctite applies better because of its applicator nozzle. You need to use Q-tips to apply linseed oil. Linseed oil does act as an adhesive after a while, so it's just like Loctite in those respects.

As for twisting, I'm a one-hand-on-the-spoke and backturn kind of guy. Also, always stress release your wheels even if you're just truing your wheels every couple of months.
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Old 08-21-08, 11:25 AM   #10
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Linseed oil does a few things (raw, not boiled). It prevents corrosion from starting because it excludes air and water from entering the nipple, so even though it does get stickier with age, it doesn't let the spoke/nipple weld themselves to each other.
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Old 08-21-08, 11:52 AM   #11
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Spokes that aren't prepped with Loctite or Spoke-prep or linseed oil actually exhibit a lot more friction and spoke-twist when re-trued at a later time. The oil oxidizes and turns into a plastic-like substance not unlike blue Loctite or Spoke-prep. The actual amount of grip from them is minimal; just enough to keep the spokes from rattling loose and having a wheel go out of true. And their corrosion-resistance makes a huge difference in being able to true a wheel later. A lot of times, I've seen spokes snap from being corroded to the nipples.

I've tried lubricating spoke-threads/nipple with oil and grease before and while you do have an easy time later when re-truing a wheel, it also goes out of true very easily as well.

As for compensating for spoke-windup, you can actually feel with your fingers when the spokes twist versus when the nipples spin on the spoke. There's definitely a difference and you can do the reverse later. So the sequence goes something like this:

1. spin spoke-nipple
2. feel spoke-twist for 1/16th of a turn
3. feel nipple spin on spoke for 1/16th of a turn (1/8th total now)
4. unwind spoke by turning back nipple 1/16th turn
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Old 08-21-08, 12:17 PM   #12
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Thanks to you all.
Now Ill need just some practice to put to use the good advises.
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Old 08-21-08, 12:25 PM   #13
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In the long run I have found it better to use the tool above to prevent spoke wind up. Much easer to get it true and the wheels stay true after I do it because I'm not guessing on how far I turn the nipple by trying to composite for the twist not to mention twisting the spoke really isn't good for it on the thinner ones at least.
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Old 08-21-08, 02:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNB View Post
Nice tool!
Wonder if I can put the fingers of one.

About compensating its clear. WIth the thin DT Revo Im concerned that the spoke would twist too much and even break.
With Revolutions you need to hold each spoke with a tool. I use pliers that don't scratch the spoke.
I also use Spoke Prep. My LBS mechanic dips the threads in Spoke Prep at no cost to me.

Al
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Old 08-21-08, 04:38 PM   #15
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With Revolutions you need to hold each spoke with a tool. I use pliers that don't scratch the spoke.
I also use Spoke Prep. My LBS mechanic dips the threads in Spoke Prep at no cost to me.

Al
I fail to see the need of holding the spoke with any kind of tool. All that does is make it possible to nick the spoke and weaken it. Spoke Prep, a little oil on the rim/nipple interface and a gentle hand are all that are needed. Don't be a gorilla! The only twist you should feel is a very, very slight twist. A quarter of a turn would be far too much and probably disastrous.
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Old 08-22-08, 04:17 AM   #16
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I fail to see the need of holding the spoke with any kind of tool. All that does is make it possible to nick the spoke and weaken it. Spoke Prep, a little oil on the rim/nipple interface and a gentle hand are all that are needed. Don't be a gorilla! The only twist you should feel is a very, very slight twist. A quarter of a turn would be far too much and probably disastrous.
As I see there are diifferent opinions out there.

I have zero experience with thin round spokes like the revos.
Just with cheap 2mm thru round spokes (less problematic) and as mentioned the aero-lite with pro-lock nipples (forget it without specific tools - the first last time I brought the wheels to a shop for trueing they messed up, thats why I bought the equipment and got it myself done)

As soon as Ill get the new wheels and will need to true them, Ill give it a go without pliers and, in case of need, with.
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