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Old 09-26-08, 01:26 PM   #1
sibaudio
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8/9/10spd wheelset on 12spd bike?? what do i need to do! ?

I'm newer to cycling so sorry in advance if anything I'm saying is ********..


I just picked up a set of practically new Mavic cxp21 wheels (8/9/10speed compatible according to specs) laced with ultegra 6600 hubs off a friend for $75.. Now my bike has a Shimano "SIS" 12 spd derailleur on it.. I'm GUESSING that these wheels aren't going to fit with the 6 ring cassette that's in the the rear. I was wondering..

1) Any chance this is extremely easy and doesn't even require me to change anything?? please?? ha
2) If i do need to switch out parts would it simply be the cassette? or the derailleur as well?

THANK YOU!!
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Old 09-26-08, 02:04 PM   #2
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http://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html

your new wheels will have too long of an axle, your rear derailleur wont work, your cassette wont work, and your rear shifter wont work.
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Old 09-26-08, 02:45 PM   #3
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Cassette, rear derailler for cassette, rear shift lever for however many speeds the new cassette is and frame modification which isn't as terrible as it sounds. If the bike is steel, cold setting is possible, if the bike is aluminum, cold setting can't happen, so it requires a slight bend of the frame with each wheel removal and install.
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Old 09-26-08, 02:52 PM   #4
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... your rear derailleur wont work...
Derailleurs aren't picky, particularly if you're running friction. I'm running an old Shimano 600 together with an 8-spd cassette - no problems.
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Old 09-26-08, 02:54 PM   #5
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You will also need a tool to tighten the lock-ring for the cassette.
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Old 09-26-08, 04:40 PM   #6
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i have never once used the easiest gears for the rear.. would that still make as much of an issue with the problems with the derailleur and shifter? Thanks for the help !
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Old 09-26-08, 04:49 PM   #7
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What's your current setup? Bike, components, things like that. As long as the derailluer has the travel, you should be able to use it. The throws (length the derailluer is moved by the shifters) is all governed by the shifter. If you're using a non-indexed (it doesn't "click" into gears) then you may be able to get away with using the same shifter.
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Old 09-26-08, 05:16 PM   #8
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It's a Schwinn World bike from I believe it's from 87 and the frame is in awesome shape. Right now it has 27 1/4's on it and I wanted to go to 700c - and I do have the play in the brakes for it to reach. It has a shimano SIS 12spd derailleur that has friction shifters that do click into place. Basically the whole thing is bone stock right now but I really want to just throw some decent wheels on it for now to make it a nice commuter and hold me down until I save up enough for a very nice fixed gear in the spring (I broke my knee over the summer which made it so I can't do distance running anymore.. So I'm switching sports into biking!) I'm on this thing every day whether it be to and from school or long distance rides on the path that runs up the west side of manhattan so investment in this thing is worth it for me.

Oh, and the idea of converting it to an 8 or a 10 speed sounds awesome. Because I honestly never need most of the gears and the added weight just doesn't seem worth it to me.
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Old 09-26-08, 05:53 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by sibaudio View Post
I'm newer to cycling so sorry in advance if anything I'm saying is ********..


I just picked up a set of practically new Mavic cxp21 wheels (8/9/10speed compatible according to specs) laced with ultegra 6600 hubs off a friend for $75.. Now my bike has a Shimano "SIS" 12 spd derailleur on it.. I'm GUESSING that these wheels aren't going to fit with the 6 ring cassette that's in the the rear. I was wondering..

1) Any chance this is extremely easy and doesn't even require me to change anything?? please?? ha
2) If i do need to switch out parts would it simply be the cassette? or the derailleur as well?

THANK YOU!!
You need to purchase a 8/9/10 speed cassette. If you choose to run a 9/10 cassette you'll need to change the chain.

I'm betting you're going to have to get a new chain either way if your current bike has already been ridden. Basic shimano 8/9 speed chains are cheap ~$20-25.
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Old 09-26-08, 06:02 PM   #10
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Yes - new chain anyways. When you ride your bike, the chain adapts to the chainrings and freewheel on that bike. It is modified to fit each eccentric wave and valley. It, in effect, becomes customized. So when you swap out drivetrain components - you will need to get a new chain to acclimate to these components. Otherwise it will do such things as make noises to skip and fall off.
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Old 09-26-08, 06:20 PM   #11
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1) Get an 8, 9, or 10-speed cassette and corresponding 8, 9, or 10-speed chain and set the shifters to friction mode. Adjust rear derailer stop screws. If you really want indexed mode, also get new corresponding 8, 9, or 10-speed down-tube shifters (or you could go with integrated brake/shifters but they cost quite a bit more).

2) If your 6-speed cogs are a cassette and not a freewheel, *and* you want to continue running indexed 6-speed, you could buy a new 7-speed cassette and a 4.5mm cassette spacer (used to fit a 7-speed cassette onto an 8/9/10-speed freehub), and replace the new cassette spacers with the ones from your 6-speed cassette. You will also need to drop one of the cogs from the 7-speed cassette (but not the top cog). This will give you a 6-speed HG cassette on the new wheel.
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Old 09-26-08, 06:20 PM   #12
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Your frame will take the wheel no problem. Just spring it open and slide the wheel in("In general, you can safely go up one size in spacing this way, just springing the frame apart"). Not that big of deal. We're talking 4 millimeters here. Rear derailleurs don't care how many gears you have("Within a given brand/style of rear derailer, all "speed numbers" are generally interchangeable").. Your rear shifter will most likely need to be friction, but you might be able to get away with a 7 speed and still have indexing ("These need to have the correct number and spacing of detents ("clicks") to match the system they'll be used with. (Friction shifters have no compatiblity issues, they work with everything."). You CAN put a 7 speed cassette on a 8/9/10 hub.("Add a 4.5 mm spacer before installing a 7-speed cassette on an 8-, 9-, or 10-speed hub.")
All quotes taken from the late Sheldon Brown.
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Old 09-26-08, 08:47 PM   #13
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thanks so much everyone, now i just need to get to my LBS and get everything i need!
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Old 09-26-08, 09:24 PM   #14
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Oh, and the idea of converting it to an 8 or a 10 speed sounds awesome. Because I honestly never need most of the gears and the added weight just doesn't seem worth it to me.
I'm thinking that you don't quite understand the terminology. A 12-speed bike in today's terminology is a 6-speed double. An 8, 9, or 10-speed rear wheel will give you more gears, not fewer.
If your shifters click into place they are indexed. Some indexed shifters can be switched to friction mode. Six speed indexed shifters will not function with 8, 9, or 10-speed gear sets because of the difference in spacing between cogs. If you can convert your shifters to friction mode they won't click into position so the cog spacing is not important as long as the derailleur can travel all the way across the cassette (or freewheel).
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Old 09-27-08, 12:32 PM   #15
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Let me speak from my own experience. I have a bike with old style Campy NR downtube friction shifters and Campy NR rear derailleur. I put a 10speed Shimano rear wheel/cassette onto the bike and a new 10sp chain. I need to spread the dropout just a tiny bit to fit it on, but as someone else said, it is only 4mm.

This combination shifts and runs flawlessly. It is quieter than my Campy Chorus 10sp that I have on my carbon bike. It is better than any 6 or 7 speed that I ever tried, which was always very clumsy. There is no CLUNK or CLICK when I shift it, it just goes into the gear, nobody hears me coming.

The difference with 10sp vs. the old 6sp is that the new cassettes have ramps to guide the chain, and this is what makes indexed shifting work as well as it does now. But since this was only invented to make the current indexing work better than the early versions, it wasn't ever tried with friction shifting. Friction shifters don't care about cog spacing or derailleur throw and they work great, but the industry sold us on indexing and indexing is generally accepted. I'm a fan of indexing too, but this setup just makes me think that it isn't the only way to go.
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Old 09-27-08, 03:23 PM   #16
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ohhh **** I get it.. yeah see I said i'd probably say something ********.

I just checked and I am able to switch the shifter into friction mode! So now, correct me if I'm wrong.. I can change to a 8/9/10 speed cassette and they will work with the hub setup of those wheels. Then I need to pick up a chain that corresponds with whether i go with 8/9/10 cassette or whatever. Then I will most likely need to change the dropout on the derailleur (any advice on how to do that?) Then it SHOULD (technically) work, right?

Next question.. Would this be something I could most likely figure out how to do myself with some research and possibly video tutorials? I'm not new to taking things apart and back together, before I moved to the city I did a lot with cars and car audio which involved taking everything apart etc. I really want to just learn how to do this myself so I can understand my bike better and hopefully as a result enjoy riding even better.

Also, any suggestions on a cassette that will work and be of decent quality?? I'm not looking for anything too extreme because like I said I'm hoping to get a nice hopefully carbon fixed gear come spring time but I want something now that'll get me through some training and still be good for my everyday commute.
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Old 09-27-08, 09:25 PM   #17
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You will need a cassette and a chain. I don't think you need the tool until you are ready to remove the cassette, but for some reason I bought one when I first ordered the cassette for my wheels. You will need a chain tool for the chain. Buy a Park chain tool if you are going to do this.

The cassette is easy to do, but the chain installation could be a pain in the *****. Another option is to get a chain with a removable link like a Wipperman, but I always just bought Shimano. I follow the instructions that come with the chain, but I've done this a few times and kind of know what I'm doing at this point.

For the cassette, just get Shimano Ultegra. They are cheap enough and come in a variety of gear combos. Maybe 105 is a few dollars less, but not much. I think I have a mildly used Ultegra 9speed 12-25 sitting around. I'd have to look at the condition.

I think I've seen your moniker before on the audio boards, such as AudioAsylum? I used to go to those a lot, but lost interest a bit over the last 6 months.

And you say 'I moved to the city'. What city? There is only one of course, NYC.

Last edited by zacster; 09-27-08 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 09-27-08, 10:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sibaudio View Post
I'm newer to cycling so sorry in advance if anything I'm saying is ********..


I just picked up a set of practically new Mavic cxp21 wheels (8/9/10speed compatible according to specs) laced with ultegra 6600 hubs off a friend for $75.. Now my bike has a Shimano "SIS" 12 spd derailleur on it.. I'm GUESSING that these wheels aren't going to fit with the 6 ring cassette that's in the the rear. I was wondering..

1) Any chance this is extremely easy and doesn't even require me to change anything?? please?? ha
2) If i do need to switch out parts would it simply be the cassette? or the derailleur as well?

THANK YOU!!


Wont be too bad. Your present bike frame has 126mm dropouts that use a 6-speed freewheel hub and not a cassette hub. The 6-speed freewheel cogset screws onto your threaded hub as opposed to a cassette hub where the cassette cogs slip onto a splined hub.

The cxp-21 wheelset you got from your friend is designed for bikes with 130mm dropouts, so you will have to spread your 126mm dropouts to 130mm for it to fit. If your frame is steel you shouldn't have any problem spreading your rear dropouts 4 mm (2 mm each side). Like the other posters have said, you can probably squeeze the new rear wheel into your dropouts and be good to go, or you can have it cold set by your LBS. Or you might can possibly do it yourself with a threaded rod with nuts and washers. (Go on-line and search for that from people who's done it before.)

Whatever cassette you use on your new rear wheel (8,9, or 10-speed), use the right chain for it. Your front chainrings should handle whatever chain you use, so you shouldnt have to worry much about that. Your rear derailleur might work okay too, because all its got to do is be able to swing the entire width of the cassette. Adjust your limiter screws, inner and outer for that.

If your bike has friction shifters it may handle both extreme ranges of your cassette, and if so, then your okay. Indexed shifters probably wont work though because of the differences in cog spacing.

Either all that, or just screw on a 7-speed freewheel to replace your 6 and save your money on that new carbon bike you want. A lot less aggravation and your new wheels will better fit the carbon frame.

Just a thought.
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Old 09-28-08, 05:12 PM   #19
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And yes, NYC.. Brooklyn to be precise.
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Old 09-28-08, 05:32 PM   #20
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Actually, there is another way to convert the CXP21 to six speed. Shimano made a few, very few, six speed cassettes. You'll need the six speed freehub (not the same as a 7 speed) and the cassette. If you can find these, and they are very hard to find, the change is simple, a hex wrench removes the 8-9-10 speed freehub and you install the 6 speed then install the cassette. You'll need to replace the 130 mm axle with a one suitable for 126 and re-dish the rim (at a bike shop). If you can find those parts and make this change, your index shifting six speed SIS shifter will work with this set-up. THe trick is, finding those parts.
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Old 09-28-08, 07:07 PM   #21
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since i'm in Brooklyn too I can get you set up if you're interested. At least I can try. Let me know. You can have the 9 speed cassette for a nominal trade.
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Old 09-28-08, 07:26 PM   #22
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There's another option. Switch the freehub over to an old style 7 speed freehub and run an aftermarket 7 speed cassette. You'll need to cut down the axle and play with the cone and nut spacers but you can trim up a 7 speed conversion of this sort to fit nicely into 126 dropouts. I'm doing this on my old Canondale frame and it's been running fine for the past 8 to 9 years. I've even got index shifting on it and it's fine.
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Old 09-28-08, 10:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
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http://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html

your new wheels will have too long of an axle, your rear derailleur wont work, your cassette wont work, and your rear shifter wont work.
Not necessarily true. Each bike is different. I've not had many problems doing exactly what you want to do, and I've not "cold-set" a frame yet. I've moved 6-sp friction to 9-sp friction, 7-sp indexed to 8-sp indexed, and 6-sp friction to 8-sp friction a couple of times, at least. I've changed wheelsets and cassettes, and a couple of chains, and only one set of shifters (7-sp indexed to 8-sp indexed).

Once you get the wheels into the frame, that's when you find out how the other stuff works, but in general, if you can get 4mm more range on the RD and you have friction shifters, you're looking good.

One bonus: Once you get the rear wheel in, it pretty much holds itself without the skewer while it's on the rack.

Watch out for: chain rub on the frame using the smaller cogs, RD hitting the spokes on the larger cogs (a real expensive problem at speed)

Good luck. The guys at C&V do this all the time, so you may want to check there.
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Old 09-29-08, 07:20 AM   #24
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