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  1. #1
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    Campy 10 RD with 11 speed drivetrain

    When I first installed a Campy 11 drivetrain, I put a 10 speed rear derailleur on the bike, and hooked it up to the 11 speed shifters, without a chain, just to see if the pulleys lined up with the cogs after all 10 shifts. The upper pulley was positioned about half way between the 10th and 11th cogs after 10 shifts, so I then knew it had a different actuation ratio than the 11 speed RD.

    To make the RD travel further, the length of the lever arm needs to be slightly shorter. I expected the required amount would be small, so I tried a little experiment. I got an M5 socket head cap screw and cut it to the same length as the Campy cable clamp bolt. I removed the stock aluminum clamp washer from the RD and replaced it with two thin stainless steel washers having an OD of 10mm. To reduce the lever arm length slightly, I ground away the threads in the area where the cable would rest, just down to about the root of the thread.

    I installed the 10 speed RD on an 11 speed bike making sure that the cable rested against the reduced diameter of the clamp bolt. I first checked the travel without the chain. This time, the upper pulley was almost perfect aligned with the largest cog, after all ten shifts. I then installed the chain and checked the shifting. On the workstand, it shifted very well. With a little cable tension adjustment, the shifts were quick going up or down the cassette. If you have a relatively new 10 speed RD and want to upgrade to an 11 speed drivetrain at a lower cost, it’s worth a try.
    Last edited by DaveSSS; 01-26-09 at 07:28 AM.

  2. #2
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    I would be very surprised if Campy made a tiny change like that to the actuation ratio. What would be the point other than making components incompatible? I can see how using 1:1 versus 2:1 would make a difference but from your description, the ratio difference would be like 2:1 versus 2.1:1. I don't know Campy at all so maybe they do those types of strange things but it really just sounds like you didn't have enough cable tension during your first attempt.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I would be very surprised if Campy made a tiny change like that to the actuation ratio.
    I wouldn't.

  4. #4
    Senior Member RockyMtnMerlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    . What would be the point other than making components incompatible? .

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I would be very surprised if Campy made a tiny change like that to the actuation ratio. What would be the point other than making components incompatible? I can see how using 1:1 versus 2:1 would make a difference but from your description, the ratio difference would be like 2:1 versus 2.1:1. I don't know Campy at all so maybe they do those types of strange things but it really just sounds like you didn't have enough cable tension during your first attempt.
    You should not be surprised at all. They did the same thing in 2001, so 9 speed RDs have a very small difference in actuation ratio, compared to the newer 10 speed models. The difference is there and it is obvious if you compare the two without the chain on the bike. Without the chain you can swing the upper pulley up to the cogs and see it if lines up. With the chain on, it's guess work.

  6. #6
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    I should have expected such replies Has Campy done this before with a rear derailler? I've been looking into Campy recently for a new build and have seen some evidence of this with front deraillers (quick shift and ultra shift). Perhaps I'm naive and giving the Italians too much credit.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I should have expected such replies Has Campy done this before with a rear derailler? I've been looking into Campy recently for a new build and have seen some evidence of this with front deraillers (quick shift and ultra shift). Perhaps I'm naive and giving the Italians too much credit.
    Campy has experimented with a lot of FD changes in recent years. The differences are not that mysterious. The QS shifter just reduced the dead travel in the left finger lever and nothing else. The QS FDs have a longer lever arm that reduces the shifting effort, but requires one more click to cover the full range of travel (4 instead of 3). In 2008 the QS FD was changed so only one model works for compact or standard cranks. 2009 keeps that change, but the longer lever arm is gone. The 2009 model is made to work best with 2009 shifters. Instead of 12 clicks on the left finger lever, there are only 6. You need four to operate the current double FD and all 6 to operate a triple - that's better than separate double and triple shifters, which Campy has NEVER had. The 2008 QS FD will definitely work with the 2009 shifters. Just be sure to route the cable between the small tab on the lever arm and the clamp bolt. The 2009 FD requires the cable to be routed over the tab on the lever arm and then across to the clamp bolt. Both models then need 4 clicks to cover the full range of travel. As always, there are trim clicks in either direction.

  8. #8
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    Here are a couple of pics. The RD is the only 10 speed model I've got left, a medium cage that came off my winter/trainer bike. If I was doing this on a more permanent basis, I'd modify the original cable clamp washer. It has one arm on it that prevents rotation and another that guides the cable. I would cut off the cable guide arm, since it affects the length of the lever arm.








  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
    Here are a couple of pics. The RD is the only 10 speed model I've got left, a medium cage that came off my winter/trainer bike.
    Are you going completely to 11-speed? How many bike does that entail?

    The prices I've seen for the new 11-speed components, even at the Chorus level, are staggering. Colorado Cyclist's latest catalog has the Super Record 11-speed crank listed at $1000 and that doesn't even include the bb cups!!! Even the Chorus 11-speed crank is $650! Did you win the lottery?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    Are you going completely to 11-speed? How many bike does that entail?

    The prices I've seen for the new 11-speed components, even at the Chorus level, are staggering. Colorado Cyclist's latest catalog has the Super Record 11-speed crank listed at $1000 and that doesn't even include the bb cups!!! Even the Chorus 11-speed crank is $650! Did you win the lottery?
    You need to read the forums more frequently! 11 speed parts can be had for less than 10 speed, if you know where to shop.

    I've paid far less for all of my 11 speed parts than the some level of components cost in 2008 10 speed. There are several reputable dealers in the UK that have excellent service and prices. To make the cheapest conversion, most 10 speed cranks and FDs will work, so at the minimum you need shifters, chain, chain tool and cassette. I've bought Chorus shifters for $210, chains for $33 and cassettes for $110. That's only $353. Then sell the old shifters on E-bay for $100 and you've got a conversion for a little over $250. I've also bought new Chorus 11 cranks for $310.

    Here are some links to a few sites. I bought most of my parts from Shiny or Ribble (when they had a 15% off sale). I would avoid Bike 24 (poor communication and slow shipping) and comobike. Comobike ships by UPS. UPS charges brockerage fees and seems to get charged unwarranted tariffs that are difficult to challenge and get refunded. Orders from the UK come through the US postal system after they arrive in the US and never seem to get charged unwarranted tariffs. Very few bike parts are subject to tariff. Wheels and frames may have tariffs imposed.

    http://www.shinybikes.com/
    www.comobike.com
    http://www.bike24.com/1.php
    http://www.totalcycling.com/
    http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
    You need to read the forums more frequently! 11 speed parts can be had for less than 10 speed, if you know where to shop.

    I've paid far less for all of my 11 speed parts than the some level of components cost in 2008 10 speed. There are several reputable dealers in the UK that have excellent service and prices. To make the cheapest conversion, most 10 speed cranks and FDs will work, so at the minimum you need shifters, chain, chain tool and cassette. I've bought Chorus shifters for $210, chains for $33 and cassettes for $110. That's only $353. Then sell the old shifters on E-bay for $100 and you've got a conversion for a little over $250. I've also bought new Chorus 11 cranks for $310.

    Here are some links to a few sites. I bought most of my parts from Shiny or Ribble (when they had a 15% off sale). I would avoid Bike 24 (poor communication and slow shipping) and comobike. Comobike ships by UPS. UPS charges brockerage fees and seems to get charged unwarranted tariffs that are difficult to challenge and get refunded. Orders from the UK come through the US postal system after they arrive in the US and never seem to get charged unwarranted tariffs. Very few bike parts are subject to tariff. Wheels and frames may have tariffs imposed.

    http://www.shinybikes.com/
    www.comobike.com
    http://www.bike24.com/1.php
    http://www.totalcycling.com/
    http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/
    There are those who think I need to read it less frequently.

    Anyway, yes, I'm aware of your ability to get lower prices from the UK. I just saw the list prices Campy is posting here and was shocked at how high they were. As a comparison, what would 2009 Centaur 10-speed cost from the same sources? I assume it would be even less than the 11-speed groups.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    There are those who think I need to read it less frequently.

    Anyway, yes, I'm aware of your ability to get lower prices from the UK. I just saw the list prices Campy is posting here and was shocked at how high they were. As a comparison, what would 2009 Centaur 10-speed cost from the same sources? I assume it would be even less than the 11-speed groups.
    FWIW, I only own three bikes and usually only two - one best bike and the other a winter/trainer bike. The winter bike is 10 speed for now. The third bike is a nearly new LOOK 585 Ultra with PowerTap wheels, mechanically a duplicate of my 2006 LOOK 585 origin bike. The newest one was involved in a car/bike acident on 11-26. I've got all the 11 speed parts to rebuild it, but may keep the insurance money and not rebuild the bike.

    The high US prices are the result of a minimum advertised price (MAP) policy. Prices were raised about 75%. Some dealers are getting around it by not advertising prices. You have to call to get a price quote.

    If you compare the prices of a 2008 Chorus or Record 10 group to the new 11 speed groups, it's basically the same. Campy did not raise the prices of those groups for 2009. The new SR group is priced about 17% above Record.

    The only 10 speed groups for 2009 are Centaur and Veloce. A Centaur 10 group with carbon crank and brake levers is about $710. Chorus 11 is about $950 (at Shiny bikes). I read where someone called Licktons in the USA and got a quote of $1220 for a Chorus group, which is really not bad.
    Last edited by DaveSSS; 01-26-09 at 01:15 PM.

  13. #13
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    I'll have one 10 speed bike and one 11....I will just change cassettes on wheels to swap...

    I personally don't want to try that hard to get 11 speed.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
    The high US prices are the result of a minimum advertised price (MAP) policy. Prices were raised about 75%. Some dealers are getting around it by not advertising prices. You have to call to get a price quote.

    If you compare the prices of a 2008 Chorus or Record 10 group to the new 11 speed groups, it's basically the same. Campy did not raise the prices of those groups for 2009. The new SR group is priced about 17% above Record.

    The only 10 speed groups for 2009 are Centaur and Veloce. A Centaur 10 group with carbon crank and brake levers is about $710. Chorus 11 is about $950 (at Shiny bikes). I read where someone called Licktons in the USA and got a quote of $1220 for a Chorus group, which is really not bad.
    I've never been in Marketing so I guess I don't understand the psychology but those eye-popping MSRP figures seem very foolish and self destructive on Campy's part. Are they trying to set themselves apart from Shimano and SRAM as strictly carriage-trade products? There has to be a limit where even the well-off will balk at the cost.

    However, as you said, even here the street prices aren't anywhere near the MSRP and Colorado Cyclist's published individual item costs have to be a sham. For example, they list a complete Chorus 11-speed build kit which includes everything but a frame and fork for as low as $2270 with Campy's own Eurus wheels. Taking out reasonable costs for the wheels, tires, saddle, bars, stem, etc, makes the Chorus group itself priced at under $1300. And, CC has never been the low-cost supplier.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
    Campy has experimented with a lot of FD changes in recent years. The differences are not that mysterious. The QS shifter just reduced the dead travel in the left finger lever and nothing else. The QS FDs have a longer lever arm that reduces the shifting effort, but requires one more click to cover the full range of travel (4 instead of 3). In 2008 the QS FD was changed so only one model works for compact or standard cranks. 2009 keeps that change, but the longer lever arm is gone. The 2009 model is made to work best with 2009 shifters. Instead of 12 clicks on the left finger lever, there are only 6. You need four to operate the current double FD and all 6 to operate a triple - that's better than separate double and triple shifters, which Campy has NEVER had. The 2008 QS FD will definitely work with the 2009 shifters. Just be sure to route the cable between the small tab on the lever arm and the clamp bolt. The 2009 FD requires the cable to be routed over the tab on the lever arm and then across to the clamp bolt. Both models then need 4 clicks to cover the full range of travel. As always, there are trim clicks in either direction.
    I love getting answers without even having to ask the question The build I'm considering would likely be 2009 Centaur shifters/cassette with a triple crankset. Campy's only triple FDs and long cage RDs seem to be the Comp series which are priced comparably to the Centaur stuff. Is it safe to assume that I'd be able to get those components to work with the new Centaur shifters? I really dig the new hoods (and hopefully my wife will too as the bike will be for her).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I love getting answers without even having to ask the question The build I'm considering would likely be 2009 Centaur shifters/cassette with a triple crankset. Campy's only triple FDs and long cage RDs seem to be the Comp series which are priced comparably to the Centaur stuff. Is it safe to assume that I'd be able to get those components to work with the new Centaur shifters? I really dig the new hoods (and hopefully my wife will too as the bike will be for her).
    They just about have to since the Centaur and Veloce shifters are the only 10 speed models sold. Campy has never sold seperate triple only shifters. When I first got a pair of the 2009 Centaur shifters I did check the cable pull on the left side and I know there is enough to operate a triple FD. It will work a little differently than in the past. It used to require 7 of 12 clicks for a triple FD, but now there are only 6 and those provide the required cable pull.
    Last edited by DaveSSS; 02-26-09 at 02:14 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
    They just about has to since the Centaur and Veloce shifters are the only 10 speed models sold. Campy has never sold seperate triple only shifters. When I first got a pair of the 2009 Centaur shifters I did check the cable pull on the left side and I know there is enough to operate a triple FD. It will work a little differently than in the past. It used to require 7 of 12 clicks for a triple FD, but now there are only 6 and those provide the required cable pull.
    Thanks for the info. You'll be sure to see a post about my experience if/when the Campy triple bike is built.

  18. #18
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    Just an update. With all the warm weather in the Denver area, I finally put my 10 speed RD to a real road test, hooked up at an 11 speed drivetrain. I took the bike on a roller coaster like route just south of my house and did lots of shifting. With the simple mod to the cable clamp screw, it worked great.

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