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  1. #1
    same as it ever was NoisyKnees's Avatar
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    Cane Creek S2 headset install - am I FUBAR'd?

    This is my second build - however first time round I was smart enough to get the LBS to install the HS grrrrrrrrrrrr

    Building up one of these units http://www.smartcycles.com/zar/db_zona_red_white.jpg and without doing any research just bought a Cane Creek S2 1" threadless HS. The Cane Creek website mentions "materials: cups. steel crown race with integrated rubber seal. replaceable sealed steel cartridge bearings. neoprene bearing seals", but the Cane Creek install notes do not mention anything about these neoprene bearing seals.

    You can see my problem in the photo, the bottom bearing will not seat in the race. So I'm thinking perhaps this phantom bearing seal could fix the problem but the install notes don't mention it and it looks weird if I sandwich it between the race and the bearing.

    Do you think I have just bought the wrong HS for this fork? I would have thought 1" threadless HS's are all the same?

    Thanks for any words of wisdom for noob bike builder.

    Kerry from Oz.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    Second pic looks like the bearing is upside down... :shrug:

  3. #3
    same as it ever was NoisyKnees's Avatar
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    Correct you are - bad photo - sorry.
    I get the same problem right way up as well.

    KD

  4. #4
    Klaatu barada nikto cascade168's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawaiiwrench View Post
    Second pic looks like the bearing is upside down... :shrug:
    +1. Definitely upside down. The cartridge bearing should have a chamfer on the inner surface that mates with the angle on the crown race.

    Try using the instructions:

    http://www.canecreek.com/images/stor.../s2-s6_eng.pdf

    Pay particular attention to item G.2.


    As they say, RTFM.
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  5. #5
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    Without it in front of me(this is a very simple headset by most measures) it's hard to say...
    It should all fit cleanly and spin smoothly without any seals(even more so actually) if it is assembled properly...

  6. #6
    same as it ever was NoisyKnees's Avatar
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    I think I left out the crucial bit of info - my fault.

    From the first photo of the crown race, the polished 3mm section of steerer protuding above the race is 26.45mm OD, compared to 26.30mm for the rest of the steerer. So my problem is the bearing is sitting unstable on this lip instead of seating on the race.

  7. #7
    Klaatu barada nikto cascade168's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoisyKnees View Post
    Correct you are - bad photo - sorry.
    I get the same problem right way up as well.

    KD
    Try installing the bearing WITHOUT the lower seal, and right side up, of course. If you notice, the instructions specifically state, in at least two places, to install that lower seal "IF APPLICABLE". I don't ever remember using one of those myself. Usually the bearing just sits naked, right on the crown race.

    In your second picture it appears that you have something in between the bearing and the crown race. Get rid of that.
    Last edited by cascade168; 01-26-09 at 05:02 AM.
    "Work is the curse of the drinking class."
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  8. #8
    same as it ever was NoisyKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascade168 View Post
    Try installing the bearing WITHOUT the lower seal, and right side up, of course. If you notice, the instructions specifically state, in at least two places, to install that lower seal "IF APPLICABLE". I don't ever remember using one of those myself. Usually the bearing just sits naked, right on the crown race.

    In your second picture it appears that you have something in between the bearing and the crown race. Get rid of that.
    Thanks Cascade, I agree - I have never seen a lower seal used either which is why I am checking first - it's really ugly

    There is nothing between the bearing and the race, just fresh air. The bearing is sitting on the 26.3mm to 26.45mm steerer 'step' which is why it looks suspended. The race is not high enough for this particular fork it seems. Looks like I have to run with the ugly seal after all.

    KD

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoisyKnees View Post
    I think I left out the crucial bit of info - my fault.

    From the first photo of the crown race, the polished 3mm section of steerer protuding above the race is 26.45mm OD, compared to 26.30mm for the rest of the steerer. So my problem is the bearing is sitting unstable on this lip instead of seating on the race.
    But the crown race is on there??
    The crown race should have a slightly smaller i.d. than the bearing, and while the race needs to be pressed on there should still be lots of room for the bearing.
    Otherwise if the race is pressed on correctly, and the proper bearing actually hangs on the fork, there is a cutter to remedy this, your fork just needs some finishing at the LBS.

  10. #10
    Primate Metzinger's Avatar
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    Break out the #5 mallet.

  11. #11
    same as it ever was NoisyKnees's Avatar
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    Thanks Hawaiiwrench

    Just to correct my crappy photo skills here's 2 more. The gap is still there.

    I think the steerer needs to be cut as you suggest. that seal is so wrong.

    KD
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    Crown races are almost always a drive-fit even on the correct diameter steerer. Use the correct setting tool or a brass punch on the inner lip of the crown race and drive it flush.

  13. #13
    Gluteus Enormus mmmdonuts's Avatar
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    Was the fit between bearing and race flush and tight before you put it on the fork? I installed one on my bike recently and I think they have some wobble in them. The bearings have room to wiggle in the cups and races. I imagine this is to allow for the bevels to be the only point of contact even when the alignment is not perfect. It would also handle steer tube flex.
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  14. #14
    A little North of Hell
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    You look like you have the older style S2-S6 crown race/Headset.
    The newer models have a rubber seal built on the crown race.
    The lower bearing cup should over-hang the crown race, and you will not see that gap.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XXXI

  15. #15
    same as it ever was NoisyKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmmdonuts View Post
    Was the fit between bearing and race flush and tight before you put it on the fork? I installed one on my bike recently and I think they have some wobble in them. The bearings have room to wiggle in the cups and races. I imagine this is to allow for the bevels to be the only point of contact even when the alignment is not perfect. It would also handle steer tube flex.
    Ah yes, the $64,000 question, was the fit flush before I put it on the fork - if only I could remember.

    I think we are getting closer - the small stepout I confused Hawaiiwrench with can now be discounted - thats not the problem. I think now that gap is just supposed to be there (??) It looks and feels weird as the bearing is sitting on the crown race bevel which is creating the gap in the photos. Sitting high on the bevel gives it a slight wobble instead of a nice seat. The only other possibility I can think off is I hit it so hard I flared the race out - which is unlikely.

    Anyway - its all assembled now - if it fails anytime soon then I'll just put it down to my crappy spanner-work.

    "Accountant - dangerous with spanners"

  16. #16
    A little North of Hell
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoisyKnees View Post
    I think now that gap is just supposed to be there (??)
    pix of it assembled?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XXXI

  17. #17
    same as it ever was NoisyKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
    pix of it assembled?
    Yep, will post tomorrow. It's 12:15am here and the workshop's all locked up.

    Cheers

  18. #18
    same as it ever was NoisyKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
    pix of it assembled?

    just to close this one out - everthing seems a good snug fit and spins nice.

    thanks again
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  19. #19
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoisyKnees View Post
    just to close this one out - everthing seems a good snug fit and spins nice.
    Now that you have a happy result, here's a good clue:

    Before you unpack a headset, make sure that you have a clear area on your workbench. Then carefully lay out all of the parts in order and right side up. (They'll all be in order and held together with a big rubber band or something when you get it.) It sure makes life a lot easier.

  20. #20
    Small Member maddmaxx's Avatar
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    Just to help your peace of mind, the bearing does not sit on the flat of the crown race when finished. It sits on the conical part in the middle. The gap is reasonably normal and the "if applicable" neoprene seal sits on the flat of the crown race and fills the gap. The black "things" that appeared in your other pics are headset spacers that go between the top of the headset and the stem. If the bearing sat on the flat, then there might be insufficient contact with the conical "centering" part of the bottom bracket.

    The seal is not necessary for most installations as the bearings already have seals in place. It only provides additional protection in extremely wet conditions.

  21. #21
    A little North of Hell
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    S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    (They'll all be in order and held together with a big rubber band or something when you get it.)
    Unless it is an OEM headset.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmaxx View Post
    The gap is reasonably normal and the "if applicable" neoprene seal sits on the flat of the crown race and fills the gap.

    The seal is not necessary for most installations as the bearings already have seals in place.
    It only provides additional protection in extremely wet conditions.
    The Delrin seal only came with the older S6 models.
    The newer models have a rubber seal built onto the crown race.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XXXI

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
    The Delrin seal only came with the older S6 models.
    The newer models have a rubber seal built onto the crown race.
    Is the seal really built in, i.e. permanantly attached, or is it an O-ring snapped into a groove around the crown race's outer edge? If the later, it could have been lost.

  23. #23
    A little North of Hell
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    S2-s6

    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    Is the seal really built in, i.e. permanantly attached, or is it an O-ring snapped into a groove around the crown race's outer edge?
    integrated rubber seal molded(fused)to the crown race itself.

    aluminum split crown race with integrated rubber seal.
    look at the materials:

    http://www.canecreek.com/s-6-headset.html
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XXXI

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