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Old 01-26-09, 05:15 AM   #1
NoisyKnees
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Cane Creek S2 headset install - am I FUBAR'd?

This is my second build - however first time round I was smart enough to get the LBS to install the HS grrrrrrrrrrrr

Building up one of these units http://www.smartcycles.com/zar/db_zona_red_white.jpg and without doing any research just bought a Cane Creek S2 1" threadless HS. The Cane Creek website mentions "materials: cups. steel crown race with integrated rubber seal. replaceable sealed steel cartridge bearings. neoprene bearing seals", but the Cane Creek install notes do not mention anything about these neoprene bearing seals.

You can see my problem in the photo, the bottom bearing will not seat in the race. So I'm thinking perhaps this phantom bearing seal could fix the problem but the install notes don't mention it and it looks weird if I sandwich it between the race and the bearing.

Do you think I have just bought the wrong HS for this fork? I would have thought 1" threadless HS's are all the same?

Thanks for any words of wisdom for noob bike builder.

Kerry from Oz.
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Old 01-26-09, 05:26 AM   #2
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Second pic looks like the bearing is upside down... :shrug:
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Old 01-26-09, 05:30 AM   #3
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Correct you are - bad photo - sorry.
I get the same problem right way up as well.

KD
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Old 01-26-09, 05:32 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Hawaiiwrench View Post
Second pic looks like the bearing is upside down... :shrug:
+1. Definitely upside down. The cartridge bearing should have a chamfer on the inner surface that mates with the angle on the crown race.

Try using the instructions:

http://www.canecreek.com/images/stor.../s2-s6_eng.pdf

Pay particular attention to item G.2.


As they say, RTFM.
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Old 01-26-09, 05:38 AM   #5
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Without it in front of me(this is a very simple headset by most measures) it's hard to say...
It should all fit cleanly and spin smoothly without any seals(even more so actually) if it is assembled properly...
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Old 01-26-09, 05:50 AM   #6
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I think I left out the crucial bit of info - my fault.

From the first photo of the crown race, the polished 3mm section of steerer protuding above the race is 26.45mm OD, compared to 26.30mm for the rest of the steerer. So my problem is the bearing is sitting unstable on this lip instead of seating on the race.
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Old 01-26-09, 05:58 AM   #7
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Correct you are - bad photo - sorry.
I get the same problem right way up as well.

KD
Try installing the bearing WITHOUT the lower seal, and right side up, of course. If you notice, the instructions specifically state, in at least two places, to install that lower seal "IF APPLICABLE". I don't ever remember using one of those myself. Usually the bearing just sits naked, right on the crown race.

In your second picture it appears that you have something in between the bearing and the crown race. Get rid of that.

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Old 01-26-09, 06:17 AM   #8
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Try installing the bearing WITHOUT the lower seal, and right side up, of course. If you notice, the instructions specifically state, in at least two places, to install that lower seal "IF APPLICABLE". I don't ever remember using one of those myself. Usually the bearing just sits naked, right on the crown race.

In your second picture it appears that you have something in between the bearing and the crown race. Get rid of that.
Thanks Cascade, I agree - I have never seen a lower seal used either which is why I am checking first - it's really ugly

There is nothing between the bearing and the race, just fresh air. The bearing is sitting on the 26.3mm to 26.45mm steerer 'step' which is why it looks suspended. The race is not high enough for this particular fork it seems. Looks like I have to run with the ugly seal after all.

KD
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Old 01-26-09, 06:27 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by NoisyKnees View Post
I think I left out the crucial bit of info - my fault.

From the first photo of the crown race, the polished 3mm section of steerer protuding above the race is 26.45mm OD, compared to 26.30mm for the rest of the steerer. So my problem is the bearing is sitting unstable on this lip instead of seating on the race.
But the crown race is on there??
The crown race should have a slightly smaller i.d. than the bearing, and while the race needs to be pressed on there should still be lots of room for the bearing.
Otherwise if the race is pressed on correctly, and the proper bearing actually hangs on the fork, there is a cutter to remedy this, your fork just needs some finishing at the LBS.
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Old 01-26-09, 06:30 AM   #10
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Break out the #5 mallet.
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Old 01-26-09, 06:47 AM   #11
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Thanks Hawaiiwrench

Just to correct my crappy photo skills here's 2 more. The gap is still there.

I think the steerer needs to be cut as you suggest. that seal is so wrong.

KD
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Old 01-26-09, 07:58 AM   #12
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Crown races are almost always a drive-fit even on the correct diameter steerer. Use the correct setting tool or a brass punch on the inner lip of the crown race and drive it flush.
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Old 01-26-09, 08:23 AM   #13
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Was the fit between bearing and race flush and tight before you put it on the fork? I installed one on my bike recently and I think they have some wobble in them. The bearings have room to wiggle in the cups and races. I imagine this is to allow for the bevels to be the only point of contact even when the alignment is not perfect. It would also handle steer tube flex.
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Old 01-26-09, 08:27 AM   #14
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You look like you have the older style S2-S6 crown race/Headset.
The newer models have a rubber seal built on the crown race.
The lower bearing cup should over-hang the crown race, and you will not see that gap.
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Old 01-26-09, 09:02 AM   #15
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Was the fit between bearing and race flush and tight before you put it on the fork? I installed one on my bike recently and I think they have some wobble in them. The bearings have room to wiggle in the cups and races. I imagine this is to allow for the bevels to be the only point of contact even when the alignment is not perfect. It would also handle steer tube flex.
Ah yes, the $64,000 question, was the fit flush before I put it on the fork - if only I could remember.

I think we are getting closer - the small stepout I confused Hawaiiwrench with can now be discounted - thats not the problem. I think now that gap is just supposed to be there (??) It looks and feels weird as the bearing is sitting on the crown race bevel which is creating the gap in the photos. Sitting high on the bevel gives it a slight wobble instead of a nice seat. The only other possibility I can think off is I hit it so hard I flared the race out - which is unlikely.

Anyway - its all assembled now - if it fails anytime soon then I'll just put it down to my crappy spanner-work.

"Accountant - dangerous with spanners"
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Old 01-26-09, 09:09 AM   #16
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I think now that gap is just supposed to be there (??)
pix of it assembled?
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Old 01-26-09, 09:18 AM   #17
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pix of it assembled?
Yep, will post tomorrow. It's 12:15am here and the workshop's all locked up.

Cheers
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Old 01-27-09, 07:00 AM   #18
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pix of it assembled?

just to close this one out - everthing seems a good snug fit and spins nice.

thanks again
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Old 01-27-09, 07:37 AM   #19
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just to close this one out - everthing seems a good snug fit and spins nice.
Now that you have a happy result, here's a good clue:

Before you unpack a headset, make sure that you have a clear area on your workbench. Then carefully lay out all of the parts in order and right side up. (They'll all be in order and held together with a big rubber band or something when you get it.) It sure makes life a lot easier.
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Old 01-27-09, 07:47 AM   #20
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Just to help your peace of mind, the bearing does not sit on the flat of the crown race when finished. It sits on the conical part in the middle. The gap is reasonably normal and the "if applicable" neoprene seal sits on the flat of the crown race and fills the gap. The black "things" that appeared in your other pics are headset spacers that go between the top of the headset and the stem. If the bearing sat on the flat, then there might be insufficient contact with the conical "centering" part of the bottom bracket.

The seal is not necessary for most installations as the bearings already have seals in place. It only provides additional protection in extremely wet conditions.
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Old 01-27-09, 08:28 AM   #21
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S2

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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
(They'll all be in order and held together with a big rubber band or something when you get it.)
Unless it is an OEM headset.

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The gap is reasonably normal and the "if applicable" neoprene seal sits on the flat of the crown race and fills the gap.

The seal is not necessary for most installations as the bearings already have seals in place.
It only provides additional protection in extremely wet conditions.
The Delrin seal only came with the older S6 models.
The newer models have a rubber seal built onto the crown race.
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Old 01-27-09, 11:20 AM   #22
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The Delrin seal only came with the older S6 models.
The newer models have a rubber seal built onto the crown race.
Is the seal really built in, i.e. permanantly attached, or is it an O-ring snapped into a groove around the crown race's outer edge? If the later, it could have been lost.
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Old 01-28-09, 12:05 AM   #23
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S2-s6

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Is the seal really built in, i.e. permanantly attached, or is it an O-ring snapped into a groove around the crown race's outer edge?
integrated rubber seal molded(fused)to the crown race itself.

Quote:
aluminum split crown race with integrated rubber seal.
look at the materials:

http://www.canecreek.com/s-6-headset.html
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