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Old 01-26-09, 03:51 PM   #1
toppcatt
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Campag double to triple conversion

Hi I am looking to convert my 2007 era Campag Veloce drive train (sq taper) from a double to a triple for my impending trip to the Alps this summer for the La Marmotte , I did some of the hills in the area last summer on a compact 50/34 with 12-25 cassette, and just about survived, but feel the triple would make it easier to spin up the mountains and help my dodgy knee. So, I want to find out what needs changing. I have identified the following:
-Chain rings/crankset obviously!
-wider "triple" Bottom bracket (how do I determine what kind of thread without taking it apart?)
- Rear derailleur (either med or long cage depending on cassette choice)
New chain & cassette, either 12/26 or 13-29 probably

What I am definitely unclear about, is the front mech. I have a mech designed for a 53/39 chainset currently, but use it with a compact chainset 50/34 and it works well enough, but I want to get 53/42/30.

Additionally do I need to change either of the Ergo shifters to cope with an increase in shifting range or are they built for any combination of mechs?

Cheers

Anything that I have forgotten?
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Old 01-26-09, 04:08 PM   #2
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Go with the bigger cassette, way less headache.
Fd needs to be triple specific and you'll need a left shifter in addition to all the parts you mentioned.
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Old 01-26-09, 04:59 PM   #3
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All Campy left shifters can operate a triple, but the the '07-'08 Centaur and Veloce shifters with the limited ability escape mechanism are the worst models Campy ever made.

If you just want to get by for one trip and can do without much top gear, you could indeed just switch to a 13-29 cassette, but you'll need a medium cage RD, unless you're willing to increase the chain length so it hangs loose in the little ring and several smallest cogs. If you're sure that you'll never shift to the 50/29, then you can just install the new cassette and change nothing else.

If you do change to a triple, all you need to know is the BB threading. Most likely it's English, unless you have certain brands of Italian frames. You will need a medium cage RD, new crank and BB and a new FD. A triple FD is a lot different than a double FD.
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Old 01-27-09, 07:33 AM   #4
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Thanks for the replies. My intention is to make a more permanent change so will probably change the rear mech for a fully workijng triple setup.
It is interesting that there are 2 different opinions on the left shifter, but I guess I have nothing much to lose by trying the new setup with the old shifter.
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Old 01-27-09, 07:51 AM   #5
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Question for DaveSSS: the beauty of the pre-escapement Ergos is that they were pretty ecumenical about what crank and front derailleur you used since the micro-shifting would let you position the fd at will. I have one bike with '06 Record Ergos, a Veloce fd and a Shimano Ultegra triple crank. Front shifting is just fine and I can trim the fd to run cleanly in all of the chainrings.

The "escapement" Ergos (below Chorus) were hopeless but will the new "UltraShift" ('09) Centaur and Veloce Ergos also work with a mixed bag of cranks and fds?
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Old 01-27-09, 08:01 AM   #6
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If you really want to switch to a triple, do yourself a favor and invest enough to have a setup that works properly. I would ditch the escape shifters and get the 2009 Centaur or Veloce models with the new ultrashift mechanism. I would also get a crank with 53/39/30 or 53/39/28 chainrings. I used a 53/39/28 with a 12-25 (Campy 10 speed) for several years, riding the Colorado mountains and it worked quite well. I started using a triple before the popularity of outboard bearing cranks and chose FSA carbon cranks with ISIS BBs that were cheap on E-bay. I had no problems with them at all. I did that because Campy does not offer a 53/39/30. If I was building up a new triple crank bike today, I'd look at FSA or maybe an Ultegra triple crank, but not DA, due to the oddball bolt circle on the little ring. Some of the FSA outboard bearing models have had problems with the left crankarm coming loose, unless the proper loctite products are used on the spindle and fixing bolt. FSA has revised instructions with details.
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Old 01-27-09, 08:09 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Question for DaveSSS: the beauty of the pre-escapement Ergos is that they were pretty ecumenical about what crank and front derailleur you used since the micro-shifting would let you position the fd at will. I have one bike with '06 Record Ergos, a Veloce fd and a Shimano Ultegra triple crank. Front shifting is just fine and I can trim the fd to run cleanly in all of the chainrings.

The "escapement" Ergos (below Chorus) were hopeless but will the new "UltraShift" ('09) Centaur and Veloce Ergos also work with a mixed bag of cranks and fds?
It should since there are still 6 clicks for operating a triple. The choice of crank makes no difference, since all have nearly identical chainring spacing, but I would always use a Campy FD. I tried a Shimano DA triple FD once and never could get it to shift decently with my Campy shifters.

I have the new Centaur shifters and still have one triple crank, so maybe I'll set it up to try one of these days. Shifting a Campy triple FD normally requires 7 clicks from the old style shifters. To make the shift from the little ring to the middle ring, a 5-click full sweep of the left finger lever should make the shift. Then 1-2 clicks of the thumb are needed to recenter the FD cage and eliminate chain rub. Since the new shifters only have 6 clicks, that shifting sequence has to be a bit different, but there will still be trim clicks available.
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Old 01-27-09, 11:48 AM   #8
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I don't think a small ring of 30 is small enough. It's fine for general riding around, audax and brevet riding, and that sort of thing, but it's not really small enough for real touring in mountainous country. I love Campy, and I ride it every day in season, but if you're going to convert, really convert to something that is ideal for touring. A Campagnolo racing triple is not really suitable for that (and it was never intended to be).
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Old 01-27-09, 12:20 PM   #9
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I don't think a small ring of 30 is small enough. It's fine for general riding around, audax and brevet riding, and that sort of thing, but it's not really small enough for real touring in mountainous country. I love Campy, and I ride it every day in season, but if you're going to convert, really convert to something that is ideal for touring. A Campagnolo racing triple is not really suitable for that (and it was never intended to be).
This is true - depends on whether you're doing loaded touring or not. If loaded, you'll want a 46/36/26 type of crank (110/74 BCD) or even a smaller-chainring mountain bike crank. Of course, the smaller you go, the more you sacrifice higher gears useful for fun road riding.

I'm building up my old Raleigh to keep in California and ride in the mountains, and am using a 52/42/28 triple with a 12-25 cassette, but I'm planning to ride with nothing more than a rack-top trunk pack, not panniers.
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Old 01-27-09, 04:44 PM   #10
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I don't think a small ring of 30 is small enough. It's fine for general riding around, audax and brevet riding, and that sort of thing, but it's not really small enough for real touring in mountainous country. I love Campy, and I ride it every day in season, but if you're going to convert, really convert to something that is ideal for touring. A Campagnolo racing triple is not really suitable for that (and it was never intended to be).
You can successfully install a 26T granny ring on a Campy crank. This question came up very recently on another thread and I'm going to just copy what I wrote there:

I've modified a Campy Chorus 53/42/30 triple crank by replacing the 30T granny with a 26T. The guru on the Campy Only! web site assured me it wouldn't work as the chain would drag on the fd's tail and the rd wouldn't handle the needed wrap.

He was wrong. The chain clears the fd in all gears, even small-small (13x26), if the chain is under pedaling tension and the Chorus long cage rear derailleur handles the chain wrap all the way down to 14x26 even though it exceeds Campy's published limits.
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Old 01-27-09, 05:05 PM   #11
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Thanks for the replies. My intention is to make a more permanent change so will probably change the rear mech for a fully workijng triple setup.
It is interesting that there are 2 different opinions on the left shifter, but I guess I have nothing much to lose by trying the new setup with the old shifter.
I believe HawaiiWrench is thinking of Shimano when he states that the left shifter needs to be triple specific. As DaveSSS has pointed out, all Campy shifters can operate both a double or triple FD, which confirms my research.

If you are looking for a nice triple crank, Stronglight makes many different cranks in a variety of lengths and gearing options (and price ranges). You should be able to find something suitable here: http://www.xxcycle.com/road-crankset...nglight,en.php

I think any of those would go much nicer on a Campy bike than Shimano or FSA (purely aesthetic reasoning of course).
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Old 01-27-09, 05:06 PM   #12
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Not to hijack this thread, but I have a similar question. I currently have a centaur compact crankset, centaur 10-speed cassette, and medium-cage centaur rd. Chain is chorus ultra narrow.

Planning a somewhat hilly loaded tour in May, so I'm thinking of installing a shimano deore mtb crankset and fd, and a deore rd. Anyone know if these be compatible with the ultra narrow chain? Shifters shouldn't be a problem as I have bar-ends and will continue to use the campy cassette.
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Old 01-27-09, 05:56 PM   #13
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I believe HawaiiWrench is thinking of Shimano when he states that the left shifter needs to be triple specific. As DaveSSS has pointed out, all Campy shifters can operate both a double or triple FD, which confirms my research.
Dunno wtf i was thinking, the trimming and shifting capabilities are my favorite things about Campy...
DaveSSS is correct.

So used to saying some stuff i guess, i routinely steer people away from triple conversions if possible.
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Old 01-27-09, 07:06 PM   #14
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Not to hijack this thread, but I have a similar question. I currently have a centaur compact crankset, centaur 10-speed cassette, and medium-cage centaur rd. Chain is chorus ultra narrow.

Planning a somewhat hilly loaded tour in May, so I'm thinking of installing a shimano deore mtb crankset and fd, and a deore rd. Anyone know if these be compatible with the ultra narrow chain? Shifters shouldn't be a problem as I have bar-ends and will continue to use the campy cassette.
All modern 10 speed chains are very close to the same 5.9mm width, including Campy, Shimano and KMC.

I assume you'll be using friction shifting?
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Old 01-27-09, 08:08 PM   #15
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^
Not sure I explained myself enough. I'm worried that the Campy 10-sped chain might be too narrow to fit on the shimano 9-speed rings and pulleys. Also worried that the 10-speed chain, b/c of its narrowness, might possibly fall between rings on fd shifts. Front shifter is friction, so it should work with triple rings. Rear shifter is indexed, but I plan on sticking with the Campy cassette so it should work too.
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Old 01-28-09, 09:53 AM   #16
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^
Not sure I explained myself enough. I'm worried that the Campy 10-sped chain might be too narrow to fit on the shimano 9-speed rings and pulleys. Also worried that the 10-speed chain, b/c of its narrowness, might possibly fall between rings on fd shifts. Front shifter is friction, so it should work with triple rings. Rear shifter is indexed, but I plan on sticking with the Campy cassette so it should work too.
You mentioned a bunch of Shimano parts, including a Deore RD, but not a Shimano cassette. You do know the cogs spacing is not the same? Campy shifters won't work the Deore RD unless a shiftmate is used.

As for the cranks, their is not enough difference in cog spacing for the chain to actually fall between the rings. How well you mismatched setup works depends on the shifter and FD combination.
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Old 01-28-09, 12:00 PM   #17
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I may be missing something here, but I don't think so. I know the spacing of Shimano cogs is different from Campy, but its the shifters that cause the RD to move the required distance. I.e., the RD will do whatever the shifter tells it to do. Thus, as long as the shifter is Campy (to match the Campy cogs), everything should be cool. Right?

Possible problem is that the 9-speed Deore shifter will not move far enough in each direction to handle a 10-speed cassette, but I'd be surprised if that were the case. Limit screws should enable enough adjustment to get the full range needed.
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Old 01-28-09, 03:56 PM   #18
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LOL, let me tell you this... the last thing you want if you plan on touring is some kind of jury-rigged it-seems-to-work-well-enough drivetrain. I wish Campagnolo had this covered, but they have never been seriously interested in touring bikes over there. I'm sticking to what I said before: if you're going to "convert", then do it properly with something designed for what you want to do.
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Old 01-28-09, 04:45 PM   #19
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I may be missing something here, but I don't think so. I know the spacing of Shimano cogs is different from Campy, but its the shifters that cause the RD to move the required distance. I.e., the RD will do whatever the shifter tells it to do. Thus, as long as the shifter is Campy (to match the Campy cogs), everything should be cool. Right?
Wrong. Rear derailleurs are typically compatible only within a given manufacturer's line. Most Shimano rear derailleurs will work with any of Shimano's shifters and cassettes no matter what the number of "speeds". Campy is the same in that current Campy shifters will work with any current Campy derailleur and cassettes.

However, that doesn't mean that a Campy shifter will work with a Shimano rear derailleur even if you use a Campy cassette and, in fact, it won't unless you use a converter such as a Jtek Shiftmate.
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Old 01-28-09, 04:57 PM   #20
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Ok, my bad. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm gonna have to stick with my compact and 13-29 cassette, or add a Campy triple to the front, which only gains me a few gear inches (a small ring of 30 instead of 34). I'd also need to get a long-cage RD to handle the capacity, as my current RD is a med-cage.
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Old 01-28-09, 05:08 PM   #21
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However, that doesn't mean that a Campy shifter will work with a Shimano rear derailleur even if you use a Campy cassette and, in fact, it won't unless you use a converter such as a Jtek Shiftmate.
And this is because of the actuation ratio, I presume, as we discussed in another thread. The difference between Campy and Shimano is that Campy likes to randomly change the rear derailler actuation ratio whereas Shimano has always kept it the same (aside from a Dura Ace and possibly XTR exception here and there).
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Old 01-28-09, 05:08 PM   #22
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How far the rear derailleur moves with each indexed shift depends on a combination of two variables, cable pull and derailleur throw ratio. The "throw ratio" is a function of the geometry built into the derailleur. Because of these variables Campy shifters don't mix well with Shimano rear derailleurs. And pre-9-speed Dura-Ace shifters and RD's don't mix well with other Shimano shifters and RD's. And 8-speed and early 9-speed Campy shifters and RD's don't mix in with later Campy shifters and RD's.
(edit joejack951 beat me to it.)
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Old 01-28-09, 06:15 PM   #23
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I may be missing something here, but I don't think so. I know the spacing of Shimano cogs is different from Campy, but its the shifters that cause the RD to move the required distance. I.e., the RD will do whatever the shifter tells it to do. Thus, as long as the shifter is Campy (to match the Campy cogs), everything should be cool. Right?

Possible problem is that the 9-speed Deore shifter will not move far enough in each direction to handle a 10-speed cassette, but I'd be surprised if that were the case. Limit screws should enable enough adjustment to get the full range needed.
NO! It's not just the shifter that determines the RD travel. Every RD has a actuation ratio, so the shifter and RD must match. As an example, a SRAM shifter pulls a uniform 3mm of cable per shift to make the RD move 3.95mm, but a Shimano shifter pull a lot less and the pulls are not uniform. Campy pulls are also not uniform.
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