Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31
  1. #1
    Senior Member cantdrv55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,301
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reynolds 853 vs cro-mo

    Is 853 worth the admission price? Will I notice the weight diff or is mainly strength and thickness that is the hallmark of 853? There are a few 853 frames and bikes on craigslist but cro-mo and Tange are more plentiful and much cheaper too.

  2. #2
    Extra Medium Member redtires's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Louisville, Co
    My Bikes
    Fuji Roubaix 1.0 (Sampson Kalispell Ti GONE); VooDoo Wanga (Specialized Stumpy: GONE)
    Posts
    1,613
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Personally, I think that when it comes to a straight on comparison of high-end steel bikes, (4130 is not particularly "high-end" btw) such as 853, Prestige, Nemo, Brain, etc, etc... for what most people use their bikes for, you'd be fine with any of them. Just make sure you looking at a well designed, well built frame. 853 may be a few ounces lighter and have a higher tensile strength in the lab than some other tubeset...but you could just not eat that big 'ole blueberry muffin in the morning too. I tend to buy frames based off of geometry and quality of the build...and the material is my second priority.
    Coming to you from and brought to you by:
    Department of redundancy department.

  3. #3
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Grid Reference, SK
    My Bikes
    I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
    Posts
    3,769
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    853 is a cro-mo steel, AFAIK. Or at least probably has a similar composition to the class of steels known as 'cro-moly.' I do not know if the exact metallurgical composition of 853 is known - it may be a closely guarded secret.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromoly


    The advantage of 853 is that it can get stronger in the heat affected zone after welding or brazing. Builders usually use this charateristic to make a lighter frame with the same strength as a heavier frame made from an inferior material. They make lighter frames by using thinner walls than would be possible with weaker materials.

    As for stiffness, most steels have very similar stiffness per unit of cross-sectional area, so a frame made from thinner walled material (like 853 usually is) actually tend to be less stiff than a frame made of thicker material... all other things being equal*. Fortunately, most steel frames are more than stiff enough and if a slight drop in stiffness is the cost for a lighter frame it is not a big problem.

    * All other things are usually not equal, though, and, as mentioned above, build quality, fit, and geometry are more important than the actual alloy used in manufacture.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    My Bikes
    '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
    Posts
    25,780
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Higher strength materials allow thinner walls and the reduction in stiffness can be compensated for by making the tubes larger in diameter. The upshot is that the frame built from the stronger material is usually both lighter and stiffer.

    When 853 was first announced it was touted as the material that was going to make steel competitive with or superior to aluminum, titanium and carbon. Obviously that didn't happen.

    853 is a good material and can be built into a reasonably light durable frame. But it's not magic and some of the early frames built with it had cracking problems at the welds.

    For a reasonable price, I'd certainly buy an 853 frame made by a reputable builder but I wouldn't pay a big premium just to get it.

  5. #5
    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Green Mountain, Colorado
    My Bikes
    Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
    Posts
    1,521
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    When 853 was first announced it was touted as the material that was going to make steel competitive with or superior to aluminum, titanium and carbon. Obviously that didn't happen.
    That has nothing to do with the material and everything to do with marketing. Aluminum is cheaper and sexier, carbon and titanium sexier and regarded as "high-end". As an analogy my father-in-law's Rolex cost twice as much as my Baume et Mercier but my mine's the better watch. But ooohhhh....it's a Rolex and everyone (everyone who doesn't know anything about watches) knows that Rolex is the best. Same thing goes for carbon and titanium.

    This thread is as good an example as any of the lack of knowledge about different materials. It is commonly assumed that all tubes of a particular material are created equal. They are not. In the case of aluminum and steel the heat treating and the forming of the tubes themselves are just as important - more important - than the alloy itself. You commonly see threads where people say "oh, it's just cro-moly" or getting more specific "it's just 4130". But 4130 is just an alloy. When you say that a frame is "4130" it tells you nothing. It could just as easily be made of solid bars of 4130. Or machined out of a brick of 4130.

    As said "all else being equal" thiner walls = flexier. But all else is not equal. 853 is an engineered product NOT simply a steel alloy. I believe they begin with cro-moly tubes but then they form it and heat treat it and turn it into a product. On the contrary, 853 is VERY stiff. It is generally NOT considered good tubing for a touring bike because it it too stiff. It is common to build an 853 frame with 725 stays and fork to have a very light and stiff main frame with a more supple ride. Eddy Merckx is credited with being the impetus for the creation of such a concept as he believed that an entire 753 bike (the predecessor to 853) was too stiff for a Grand Tour. That's what 653 was - 753 main tubes and 531 stays.

    Will you notice the weight difference? Well, it depends on what you're comparing it to. If you're comparing it to, say, 725 then you'll only notice the weight difference if you put it on a scale. It will be considerably stiffer, however. Any way you slice it, it's a world class tubeset. You can argue the different properties of different materials 'till you're blue in the face but 853 is absolutely tip-top, right up there with any other engineered tubing on the market. They all have their own strength, weaknesses and characteristics.

    "Will I notice the weight diff or is mainly strength and thickness that is the hallmark of 853?" That all goes together. It's strength allows Reynolds to engineer it with thinner walls which results in the light weight. Not all 853 frames weigh the same either as it depends on which 853 tubes the builder chooses.



    Chris
    Last edited by GV27; 03-09-09 at 08:09 PM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member SlimAgainSoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Down South
    Posts
    1,243
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've got an 853 frame. It is light.

    Mine is a LeMond Zurich. It has a shaped downtube and seat tube, which I believe is to stiffen it up, but perhaps the shaping serves other functions.

    Whatever ... it is light and very smooth. A nice frame, for sure, and a terrific ride.

  7. #7
    Senior Member cantdrv55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,301
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Damn you guys are smart. Now it's up to my accountant and she's a cheapskate.

    Thanks for the info guys.

  8. #8
    DOS
    DOS is offline
    Senior Member DOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Arlington, VA USA
    Posts
    1,234
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cantdrv55 View Post
    Damn you guys are smart. Now it's up to my accountant and she's a cheapskate.

    Thanks for the info guys.
    That being the case, I have a Jamis Quest, made from Reynolds 631, that is also a great ride and attainable for a bit less than most stock 853 rides.

    Edit: 631 and 853 are the same alloy but 853 is heat treated to increase strength.
    Last edited by DOS; 03-09-09 at 07:43 PM.
    My Opinions > My Knowledge

  9. #9
    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Green Mountain, Colorado
    My Bikes
    Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
    Posts
    1,521
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yeah - that's EXACTLY it - the heat treating is the "magic" not the alloy. The heat treating makes it stronger so you can use thinner tubes and get both lighter weight and higher stiffness.

    As a point of reference, Mercian charges an extra 210 GBP for 853 over 631. That's $290 - though with the current exchange rate that's a steal in dollars right now. A year ago it was more like $400.

    My accountant's a cheapskate too. What I've been doing is just putting $50 a month into my "Mercian Fund". I'm getting a custom 725 Mercian King of Mercia. 725 is 100 GBP cheaper than 853 and 100 GBP more expensive than 631. And pretty well right in the middle in terms of weight and stiffness.

  10. #10
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Grid Reference, SK
    My Bikes
    I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
    Posts
    3,769
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post

    As said "all else being equal" thiner walls = flexier. But all else is not equal. 853 is an engineered product NOT simply a steel alloy. I believe they begin with cro-moly tubes but then they form it and heat treat it and turn it into a product. On the contrary, 853 is VERY stiff.
    853 tubes are steel tubes - the Reynolds website makes no claims to the contrary.

    All steel has similar stiffness per given cross sectional area. Reynolds itself does not claim any extrodinary stiffness of its 853 tubes. And plenty of very nice touring bikes are made from 853 tubes.

  11. #11
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Grid Reference, SK
    My Bikes
    I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
    Posts
    3,769
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    Yeah - that's EXACTLY it - the heat treating is the "magic" not the alloy. The heat treating makes it stronger so you can use thinner tubes and get both lighter weight and higher stiffness.
    Stiffness does not change in steel. From the cheapest Hi-ten to the fanciest air-hardened wonder-alloy... here is a link to a chart I found...

    http://www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/properties_of_metals_strength.htm


    If you care to look at 'Modulus of Elasticity' in the sixth and seventh columns, you'll see that there is almost no change - regardless of other mechanical properties of the material - through all the steels until you get to the stainless steels (853 is not a stainless steel).

  12. #12
    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Green Mountain, Colorado
    My Bikes
    Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
    Posts
    1,521
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Who said anything about 853 not being steel? The point I'm making is that it's an engineered product, not just a chunk of steel. It's not just a steel alloy. It's a steel alloy that's been heat treated and formed into very special bicycle tubes.

    I guess it's something different in the engineering of the tubesets then. I don't claim to be a maerials engineer but do know a fair bit about bicycle tubing. 853 certainly DOES yield a stiffer frame than 531. I can tell you that from experience and Eddy Merckx, Ernesto Colnago, Bob Jackson, Mercian and numerous other framebuilders agree with me. Reynolds claims - and Eddy Merckx does not dispute it - that the 653 tubeset was developed because Eddy came to them saying that he thought the new 753 frames were too stiff - to harsh - to be ridden for an entire grand tour. Obviously "too stiff" is in the eye of the beholder. Merckx thought 753 was too stiff, but now everyone ride super-stiff carbon frames for three weeks. You certainly can build a nice touring frame out of 853, but most framebuilders don't recommend it.

    Bob Jackson on 753:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Jackson
    This tubing uniquely combines terrific power transmission ability, lively ride, responsiveness and a high degree of comfort, while producing some of the lightest frames available.
    Bob Jackson on 853:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Jackson
    The final significant advantage is the increased stiffness of the frame and its ability to transmit all of the cyclist power into forward motion.
    (http://worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-HOME.htm)

    But heck, I guess you're right - forget all this stuff about 4130, Tange Super Prestige, Columbus SL, Reynolds 725, 853, etc. etc. - just go down to your local Home Depot, get some galvanized pipe and weld 'er up - it's all the same, right?
    Last edited by GV27; 03-09-09 at 08:58 PM.

  13. #13
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Grid Reference, SK
    My Bikes
    I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
    Posts
    3,769
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    Who said anything about 853 not being steel? The point I'm making is that it's an engineered product, not just a chunk of steel. It's not jsut a steel alloy. It'a steel allow that's been heat treated and formed into very special bicycle tubes.

    I guess it's something different in the engineering of the tubesets then. I don't claim to be a maerials engineer but do know a fair bit about bicycle tubing. 853 certainly DOES yield a stiffer frame than 531. I can tell you that from experience and Eddy Merckx, Ernesto Colnago, Bob Jackson, Mercian and numerous other framebuilders agree with me. Reynolds claims - and Eddy Merckx does not dispute it - that the 653 tubeset was developed because Eddy came to them saying that he thought the new 753 frames were too stiff - to harsh - to be ridden for an entire grand tour.

    Bob Jackson on 853:

    (http://worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-HOME.htm)

    But heck, I guess you're right - forget all this stuff about 4130, Tange Super Prestige, Columbus SL, Reynolds 725, 853, etc. etc. - just go down to your local Home Depot, get some galvanized pipe and weld 'er up - it's all the same, right?
    Heat treating steel has no affect on stiffness. The link you provided refers mainly to the super-thin wall and ovalized oversized 853OS tubes and does not claim, as you did, that the heat treating of 853 makes it stiffer. It also mentions the availablilty of standard diameter 853 tubes which give a "more comfortable ride."

    Maybe I'm just being a stickler here... I certainly did not mean to discount you knowledge... my main point is (primarily an academic point, I suppose) that Heat treating has little or no affect on stiffness.

  14. #14
    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Green Mountain, Colorado
    My Bikes
    Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
    Posts
    1,521
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OK, but the rest of the engineering does. You are right, i was assuming it was the heat treatment and you know what they say about assumptions. But somehow 853 ends up being stiffer. It simply is NOT the same as the galvanized pipe down at the Home Depot.

    I've been spending weeks speaking to the owner of Mercian about my new frame and while I already knew a lot about tubing, I've also learned a lot. One thing that he has confirmed is that 853 in standard size does yield a stiffer frame (which I already knew - I used to own a 753 Raleigh that was noticeably stiffer than my Columbus SL Gianni Motta) and for my needs he has recommended 725 as the best blend of comfort and responsiveness. Money has been no object in these discussions - I'm already plunking down $1400 for my frame. $150 for 853 or $200 853 Pro Team would certainly not have been an obstacle if it were appropriate for me. It won't really make any weight difference (well, I suppose the Pro Team would) but the 725 will give me a bit more of a plush ride - not as plush as 631 but livelier that 631......

    Reynolds says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynolds
    Reynolds 853 provides additional stiffness through reduced microyielding at the joints, allowing stiffer frames with excellent fatigue strength (when compared to standard chrome molybdenum)
    I'd love to hear an explanation of what precisely that means - it's over my head. All I know is that it is somehow stiffer.
    Last edited by GV27; 03-09-09 at 09:19 PM.

  15. #15
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Grid Reference, SK
    My Bikes
    I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
    Posts
    3,769
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    OK, but the rest of the engineering does. Somehow 853 ends up being stiffer.

    Reynolds says:
    I re-read your posts and... ooops - you were right. I thought you wrote
    The heat treating makes it stronger so you get both lighter weight and higher stiffness.

    But what you really wrote was:
    The heat treating makes it stronger so you can use thinner tubes and get both lighter weight and higher stiffness.
    You were right.

  16. #16
    DOS
    DOS is offline
    Senior Member DOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Arlington, VA USA
    Posts
    1,234
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    Who said anything about 853 not being steel? The point I'm making is that it's an engineered product, not just a chunk of steel. It's not just a steel alloy. It's a steel alloy that's been heat treated and formed into very special bicycle tubes.

    I guess it's something different in the engineering of the tubesets then. I don't claim to be a maerials engineer but do know a fair bit about bicycle tubing. 853 certainly DOES yield a stiffer frame than 531. I can tell you that from experience and Eddy Merckx, Ernesto Colnago, Bob Jackson, Mercian and numerous other framebuilders agree with me. Reynolds claims - and Eddy Merckx does not dispute it - that the 653 tubeset was developed because Eddy came to them saying that he thought the new 753 frames were too stiff - to harsh - to be ridden for an entire grand tour. Obviously "too stiff" is in the eye of the beholder. Merckx thought 753 was too stiff, but now everyone ride super-stiff carbon frames for three weeks. You certainly can build a nice touring frame out of 853, but most framebuilders don't recommend it.

    Bob Jackson on 753:



    Bob Jackson on 853:

    (http://worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-HOME.htm)

    But heck, I guess you're right - forget all this stuff about 4130, Tange Super Prestige, Columbus SL, Reynolds 725, 853, etc. etc. - just go down to your local Home Depot, get some galvanized pipe and weld 'er up - it's all the same, right?
    If I read the link you posted (and that certainly may not be the case as I am no engineer), I think Jackson's point is that because the stuff is stronger, he can use thinner walls and over sized tubes. It would seem the thinner wall = lighter frame; oversized tube = increased stiffness. That is, because material strength to weight ratio is better, he can thin the walls to reduce weight, but then add a bit more material to make the tubes oversized. So you can make frames of the same stiffness with whatever steel you choose but to get comparable stiffness with steels of lower strength than 853, you'd end up with a very heavy bike because the oversized tubes would be quite heavy. So the stiffness of the steel doesn't change but the stiffness of the frames do; right?
    My Opinions > My Knowledge

  17. #17
    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Green Mountain, Colorado
    My Bikes
    Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
    Posts
    1,521
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Somehow the stiffness changes even when using non-OS tubes. LarDasse74 was right - I don't know precisely why. But if you were to line up three frames, all from the same maker, all with the same lugs, all with the same geometry and one with 631, one with 725 and one with 853 and ride them back-to-back-to-back you'd have to be pretty insensitive not to feel the difference. And it's not the weight - we're talking aboyt maybe a 1 pound spread across all of them - they certainly feel different. Somehow the 853 allows you to use thinner tubes and still get a stiffer frame. And 953 is claimed to be a step beyond that.

    Bob Jackson in that link was talking about the 853OS being the ultimate in stiffness and standard 853 being not quite as stiff. But standard 853 does yield a stiffer frame than standard 725. I am told, however, that 725OS will feel stiffer than standard 853. Haven't had the luxury of trying every combo - just a representative variety over the years.

    And what we haven't discussed is the springiness of the stuff - which is a harder concept to grasp. I recently read an interview in an old Riv Reader with a guy who builds frames for them. He was talking about recently trying to align a 725 frame. He said he pulled the head tube something like a foot off of the fixture (basically flexing the frame a full full foot between the seat tube and head tube - I dunno maybe it was only 6 inches - a LOT either way) and it sprung right back to where it was before. He said if he'd used that much force with 531 he would've folded the thing in two. So somehow the tubing makers are making big-time alterations to the characteristics of the tubes while using similar base alloys. LarDasse74 is absolutely right, however - in the end it's jsut as much weird science to me as it is to you!
    Last edited by GV27; 03-09-09 at 09:41 PM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    My Bikes
    '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
    Posts
    25,780
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    That has nothing to do with the material and everything to do with marketing. Aluminum is cheaper and sexier, carbon and titanium sexier and regarded as "high-end". As an analogy my father-in-law's Rolex cost twice as much as my Baume et Mercier but my mine's the better watch. But ooohhhh....it's a Rolex and everyone (everyone who doesn't know anything about watches) knows that Rolex is the best. Same thing goes for carbon and titanium.

    This thread is as good an example as any of the lack of knowledge about different materials. It is commonly assumed that all tubes of a particular material are created equal. They are not. In the case of aluminum and steel the heat treating and the forming of the tubes themselves are just as important - more important - than the alloy itself. You commonly see threads where people say "oh, it's just cro-moly" or getting more specific "it's just 4130". But 4130 is just an alloy. When you say that a frame is "4130" it tells you nothing. It could just as easily be made of solid bars of 4130. Or machined out of a brick of 4130.

    As said "all else being equal" thiner walls = flexier. But all else is not equal. 853 is an engineered product NOT simply a steel alloy. I believe they begin with cro-moly tubes but then they form it and heat treat it and turn it into a product. On the contrary, 853 is VERY stiff. It is generally NOT considered good tubing for a touring bike because it it too stiff. It is common to build an 853 frame with 725 stays and fork to have a very light and stiff main frame with a more supple ride. Eddy Merckx is credited with being the impetus for the creation of such a concept as he believed that an entire 753 bike (the predecessor to 853) was too stiff for a Grand Tour. That's what 653 was - 753 main tubes and 531 stays.

    Will you notice the weight difference? Well, it depends on what you're comparing it to. If you're comparing it to, say, 725 then you'll only notice the weight difference if you put it on a scale. It will be considerably stiffer, however. Any way you slice it, it's a world class tubeset. You can argue the different properties of different materials 'till you're blue in the face but 853 is absolutely tip-top, right up there with any other engineered tubing on the market. They all have their own strength, weaknesses and characteristics.

    "Will I notice the weight diff or is mainly strength and thickness that is the hallmark of 853?" That all goes together. It's strength allows Reynolds to engineer it with thinner walls which results in the light weight. Not all 853 frames weigh the same either as it depends on which 853 tubes the builder chooses.



    Chris
    You seem to know just enough about material science to be dangerous. Aluminum, Ti and carbon have specific properties steel cannot match and, depending on what the builder is after, they can and do make a superior frame for a given purpose. If steel were really competative, don't you think at least one major builder and one Pro team would be using it. It's not just marketing and hype. The differences are real and useful.

    BTW, 853 doesn't "....begin with cro-moly tubes but then they form it and heat treat it and turn it into a product." 853 is a high-strength steel alloy composition originally developed for the side beams in car doors and later adopted for bike tubing use. It is a strong alloy with the unusual property of actually gaining strength in the heat-effected zone when welded. That allows thinner walls at the tube ends and contributes to the resulting light frame. However, if not welded properly, these tubes are crack-prone at the welds.

    As an exercise, look up the definition of "Young's Modulus" and it's values for various materials. All steel alloys have a Young's modulus with in a few percentage points of each other and 853 is no exception. It gets it's stiffness from being made into larger diameter tubes, not because it is inherently stiffer than other steels whether they are Hi-Ten, Cr-Mo or any other variation.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Reston, VA
    My Bikes
    2003 Giant OCR2
    Posts
    2,369
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    As an exercise, look up the definition of "Young's Modulus" and it's values for various materials. All steel alloys have a Young's modulus with in a few percentage points of each other and 853 is no exception. It gets it's stiffness from being made into larger diameter tubes, not because it is inherently stiffer than other steels whether they are Hi-Ten, Cr-Mo or any other variation.
    This is interesting, I used to study materials science but none of it was metals so this is totally foreign to me but cool.

    Is this right?:

    *If I have a single, unjoined tube of 853 vs. lower-grade cro-moly, I'd be hard pressed to detect a difference even with decent equipment on a stress/strain plot.

    *853 gets stronger in areas that have been subjected to heat.

    *853 allows for a lighter bike because it requires less tube thickness at joints, since you can rely on heating to strengthen the joint

    *853 allows lighter, wider diameter tubes to be used - how? Is it because wider tubes inherently involve a larger heat zone when joined, which would weaken standard cro-moly but strengthens 853?

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    My Bikes
    '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
    Posts
    25,780
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Underbridge View Post
    This is interesting, I used to study materials science but none of it was metals so this is totally foreign to me but cool.

    Is this right?:

    *If I have a single, unjoined tube of 853 vs. lower-grade cro-moly, I'd be hard pressed to detect a difference even with decent equipment on a stress/strain plot.
    If the tubing diameters and wall thicknesses were identical, the difference in stiffness would be negligable between the two tubes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Underbridge View Post
    *853 gets stronger in areas that have been subjected to heat.
    Yes, welding heat (not minor heating) does make 853 stronger, not stiffer, so it has a higher ultimate tensile, that is, breaking strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Underbridge View Post
    *853 allows for a lighter bike because it requires less tube thickness at joints, since you can rely on heating to strengthen the joint
    Yes. And it's greater yield and tensile strength allow thinner walls in the rest of the tubing too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Underbridge View Post
    *853 allows lighter, wider diameter tubes to be used - how? Is it because wider tubes inherently involve a larger heat zone when joined, which would weaken standard cro-moly but strengthens 853?
    Wider (larger diameter) tubes are inheriently stiffer and the stiffness goes up with the 4th power of the diameter. So, for a tube with the same wall thickness, increasing it's diameter by 18% will make it twice as stiff. You can take advantage of this by making the walls thinner if the material is strong enough and a larger diameter thin wall tube can be just as stiff but lighter than smaller diameter thick wall tubes.

    Wider tubes don't have a longer heat affected zone than smaller ones but the thinner walls give less tolerance for poor welds so more skill is needed. 853, if properly welded, doesn't need the thick end walls to compensate for reduced strength from welding.

    BTW, as an aside, Aluminum has a Young's Modulus about 1/3 that of steel, and it's density is also about 1/3 that of steel. Ti has a Young's Modulus about 1/2 that of steel but a density of 1/2 that of steel too. As with steel, all Aluminum alloys have a nearly identical Young's Modulus as do all Ti alloys. However, the various grades of Al and Ti have widely varying yield and tensile strengths and the higher strength grades can be used at thinner wall thicknesses and made into lighter frames just like steel.

  21. #21
    cs1
    cs1 is offline
    Senior Member cs1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Clev Oh
    My Bikes
    Specialized, Schwinn
    Posts
    6,251
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LarDasse74 View Post
    853 is a cro-mo steel,.
    I think a lot of people don't realize that. 853 is just a different alloy. Because it's stronger it can be made with thinner walls. Hence, it's lighter.
    1999 Waterford RSE-11, 1995 Waterford 1200, 1989 Specialized Rockhopper Comp
    1989 Raleigh Technium, 1989 Schwinn Traveler, 1986 Specialized Rockhopper
    1984 Specialized Stumpjumper, 1986 Specialized Stumpjumper and just way too many projects to list.

  22. #22
    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Green Mountain, Colorado
    My Bikes
    Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
    Posts
    1,521
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    If steel were really competative, don't you think at least one major builder and one Pro team would be using it.
    That's entirely irrelevant - pro teams ride what they're paid to ride and manufacturers pay them to ride what their marketing department thinks will sell. Right now CF sells, steel doesn't. If saddles shaped like frogs were what the marketing departments thought would sell then the saddle manufacturers would pay the pro teams to ride saddles shaped like frogs. That doesn't mean they're comfortable. Like I said all materials and products made from those materials have different characteristics and properties, different strengths and weaknesses. Even if a particular product is best for pro racers (and CF probably is) doesn't mean it's best for you. Unless you're a pro-cyclist, that is. And like I said if you're a pro you ride what you get paid to ride. That's in the job description.
    Last edited by GV27; 03-11-09 at 10:49 AM.

  23. #23
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Grid Reference, SK
    My Bikes
    I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
    Posts
    3,769
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    That's entirely irrelevant - pro teams ride what they're paid to ride and manufacturers pay them to ride what their marketing department thinks will sell. Right now CF sells, steel doesn't. If saddles shaped like frogs were what the marketing departments thought would sell then the saddle manufacturers would pay the pro teams to ride saddles shaped like frogs. That doesn't mean they're comfortable. Like I said all materials and products made from those materials have different characteristics and properties, different strengths and weaknesses. Even if a particular product is best for pro racers doesn't mean it's best for you. Unless you're a pro-cyclist, that is. And like I said if you're a pro you ride what you get paid to ride. That's in the job description.

    You are incorrect. Yes the bikes ridden by pros look a lot like the bikes sold by their sponsors, but this does not mean they are riding off-the-rack bikes. Pros bikes are often custom made for them by some builder other than the name on the frame - at least this used to be the way it was done previously - now the frames are all modified to hide syringes and bottles of EPO without detection.

    Most of the Al, C, and Ti used in high quality bike manufacture generally have a higher strength-to-weight ratio than any available steel - even 853. This means that you need less material (by mass) to make a frame stong enough to support a rider.

    FWIW, my favourite bike is made or True Temper RC steel tubing.

  24. #24
    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Green Mountain, Colorado
    My Bikes
    Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail
    Posts
    1,521
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, that's true they sometimes do doctor up parts so one looks like another. But it's pretty tough to make a lugged steel frame (or welded for that matter) look like carbon monocoque. In most cases they're riding custom bikes form their sponsor. Cervelo (and CSC supplied by Cervelo in the past) makes a big deal out of the fact their riders ride off-the-rack frames. Nobody else does.

    And don't get me wrong - carbon may well be the thing to have for racing at the professional level. But that's not necessarily why they ride it and that doesn't mean it's best for my commuting and touring, for my sons knocking about the trails on our mountain and riding to school or for my mom's 1 mile rides around the neighborhood. I think the CF vs. Al. vs. Steel argument has been done to death and I don't think that's what the OP was asking.

    Reynolds makes both Aluminum and Ti tubes and at least according to them 853 compares quite favorably to their own Aluminum and Ti tubes. How their Al and Ti tubes compare to other people's Al and Ti tubes I have no idea.

    One question from the OP that hasn't been addressed is the fact he mentioned Tange frames being cheaper. There are also cheaper Reynolds frames (531, 631, etc) and there are also Tange frames that are similar to 853. I *think* (don't know as much about Tange as Reynolds) Prestige SuperLight is similar in both characteristics and price to 853.
    Last edited by GV27; 03-11-09 at 11:19 AM.

  25. #25
    Jet Jockey Banzai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Leavenworth, KS
    My Bikes
    Cannondale CAAD9 SRAM Red, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Nashbar X-frame
    Posts
    4,009
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    How fun.

    To reiterate something that should be mentioned over and over here...

    Stiffness is a function of tube diameter. Period. Doubling the tube diameter increases stiffness by a factor of greater than 8. This is why aluminum bikes are "harsh", not because they're aluminum, but because aluminum bikes are often made with oversized tubes. Aluminum was developed for bikes for the purpose of making oversized tubes, for stiffer racing bikes.

    "New" steels are not stiffer...they have properties that allow them to be extruded into larger diameter tubes without the walls getting too thin. I.e. 853 in 0.4-0.5mm thickness is lighter than 4130 in 0.4-0.5mm thickness. Oversized tubes in "earlier" steels are simply heavy due to the quantity of steel. With earlier steels, to get a bike as stiff as an aluminum one in oversized tubing could only be accomplished with dangerously thin tubes or at the weight of a boat anchor.
    Good night...and good luck

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •