Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-10-09, 10:39 PM   #1
cyates
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Shimano 600 9 speed indexed compatibility

I have a Shimano 600 rear derailleur that was previously used with friction shifters. Will this be compatible with Dura Ace 9 speed indexed shifters, or do I need a 9 speed-specific rear derailleur?
cyates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-09, 01:19 AM   #2
TallRider
me have long head tube
 
TallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes:
Posts: 4,106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Shimano's derailers from the pre-indexed-shifting era aren't compatible with indexed shifting, which requires a specific cable-pull ratio (amount of cable pulled per the horizontal distance traveled by the pulley wheel) such that the clicks in the shifts line up to the gears on the rear wheel.

If you're talking about the model pictured here (about 1984, at the end of friction-shifting era), then you're out of luck as far as using it with indexed shifting.

Shimano indexing compatibility: all Shimano rear derailers since the advent of indexed shifting have the same cable-pull ratio, except for 7- and 8-speed Dura-Ace. So theoretically, you could use a 6-speed-era 105 rear derailer with an 8-speed system, etc.
However, derailers originally designed for fewer speeds are generally less precise (because they didn't need to be), and so you generally want a rear derailer designed for the same number of speeds, or a greater number of speeds, than you are using.
So a 10-speed-era rear derailer will be fine on a 9-speed system, but an 8-speed-era rear derailer won't shift very crisply on a 9-speed system.

TallRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-09, 08:04 AM   #3
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 28,917
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by timcupery View Post
So a 10-speed-era rear derailer will be fine on a 9-speed system, but an 8-speed-era rear derailer won't shift very crisply on a 9-speed system.
That may be correct in theory but I'm using an 8-speed 105 long cage rear derailleur on an otherwise all 9-speed 105/Ultegra mix bike and the shifting is very good. If there is a difference in precision, it's pretty small.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-09, 08:27 AM   #4
TallRider
me have long head tube
 
TallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes:
Posts: 4,106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
fair enough; I've done this to and been mostly okay with it, although shop mechanics I've talked to have sounded aghast about it
TallRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-09, 08:28 AM   #5
Tabor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Bikes: Surly Pacer with full Ultegra
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
That may be correct in theory but I'm using an 8-speed 105 long cage rear derailleur on an otherwise all 9-speed 105/Ultegra mix bike and the shifting is very good. If there is a difference in precision, it's pretty small.
I think timcupery's point still stands. You should not expect excellent shift quality from a 6 speed derailer on a 10 speed cassette.
Tabor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-09, 03:42 PM   #6
Al1943
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
Posts: 9,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I upgraded a friend's triple from STI 7-speed to STI 9-speed and the shifting was perfect, front and rear.
Al1943 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-09, 03:59 PM   #7
TallRider
me have long head tube
 
TallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes:
Posts: 4,106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al1943 View Post
I upgraded a friend's triple from STI 7-speed to STI 9-speed and the shifting was perfect, front and rear.
By this I assume you mean you used 9-speed STI shifters and cassette with the derailers that had originally come with the 7-speed drivetrain?
TallRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-09, 07:43 PM   #8
Al1943
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
Posts: 9,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by timcupery View Post
By this I assume you mean you used 9-speed STI shifters and cassette with the derailers that had originally come with the 7-speed drivetrain?
Yes, I probably should have offered more details. The new shifters were 105 9-speed. I rebuilt the old wheel with a new 105 9-speed hub (frame had 130mm spacing), one of my extra 9-speed Ultegra cassettes, and 9-speed Ultegra chain. The triple crank and both derailleurs remained original 7-speed RXS. The bike shifted perfectly, better than my wife's new, at the time, 9-speed Ultegra.

Al
Al1943 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-09, 11:46 AM   #9
tellyho
Your mom
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Shimano's derailers from the pre-indexed-shifting era aren't compatible with indexed shifting, which requires a specific cable-pull ratio (amount of cable pulled per the horizontal distance traveled by the pulley wheel) such that the clicks in the shifts line up to the gears on the rear wheel.
I've never had this satisfactorily explained to me. I can't for the life of me figure out how a derailleur would know or care how much cable was pulled. I DO agree that a 6 spd. derailleur is not in all probability going to shift accurately or far enough for 9 or 10 speeds.
tellyho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-09, 05:26 PM   #10
Al1943
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
Posts: 9,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tellyho View Post
I've never had this satisfactorily explained to me. I can't for the life of me figure out how a derailleur would know or care how much cable was pulled. I DO agree that a 6 spd. derailleur is not in all probability going to shift accurately or far enough for 9 or 10 speeds.
The distance that the derailleur's pullies travel laterally is dependent on cable pull and derailleur geometry (throw ratio). We are lucky that Shimano has designed all of their modern rear derailleurs with the same throw ratio (with the exception of pre-9-speed Dura-Ace). Pre-indexed Shimano derailleurs may not have the same throw ratio as modern derailleurs. Campy's derailleurs have changed through time, their throw ratios changed as recently as 2001, and all modern Campy derailleurs are different from Shimano's. SRAM's road derailleurs are not compatible with Shimano's or Campy's.

Al
Al1943 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-09, 05:28 PM   #11
tellyho
Your mom
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey, thanks! That's a great explanation.
tellyho is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:41 AM.