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Thread: Patching a tire

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    Senior Member kamtsa's Avatar
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    Patching a tire

    How long do I need to wait after patching a tire before applying full pressure (90-100psi).

    Also, is it good enough to apply that 'glue' only on the tire or should I apply it also on the patch?

    Thanks,

    Kam

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    If the patch was packed on a piece of foil, then just the tire.
    If the patch was made yourself from a piece of old inner tube, then both.

    1 second.

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    Senior Member sunburst's Avatar
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    I hesitate after such a definitive answer ^. I always glue both. Let the glue mostly dry (it gets opaque) then press the patch and tube together. I usually wait a while, like hours or overnight with a weight of some type on it, before I remount the tire, but if I were on the road, I would take my chances and pump it up right away. I figure the tube is forced against the tire (holding it in place) anyway.

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    In my view -- no time at all. I've always inflated a tire as soon as I refit it. The pressure just presses the patch harder against the tire.

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    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Assuming you're using a patch kit, what's wrong with following the directions?

    1. Terminology matters. Patch the inner tube.
    2. After cleaning the area around the hole and scuffing it with a piece of sandpaper or the like, spread the glue over the area to be patched.
    3. My directions say to wait 5 minutes for the glue to set. That's what I do and my patches don't leak.
    4. Peel off the foil and apply the patch to the inner tube. Press it firmly into place.
    5. If you're on the road you can immediately reinstall the inner tube into the tire and inflate to normal operating pressure.

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    Senior Member kamtsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Assuming you're using a patch kit, what's wrong with following the directions?

    1. Terminology matters. Patch the inner tube.
    2. After cleaning the area around the hole and scuffing it with a piece of sandpaper or the like, spread the glue over the area to be patched.
    3. My directions say to wait 5 minutes for the glue to set. That's what I do and my patches don't leak.
    4. Peel off the foil and apply the patch to the inner tube. Press it firmly into place.
    5. If you're on the road you can immediately reinstall the inner tube into the tire and inflate to normal operating pressure.
    One comment and two question:

    (comment) Regarding #4, I saw several recomendations not to peel that thin clear plastic that covers the outer side of the patch.

    Question 1: what sand paper should I use? The one that comes with my patch kit seems very rough.

    Question 2: my tubes (Schwalbe) has some raised line marks on them. When I sand the tube around the hole, do I need to completly flaten and remove the raised lines?

    Thanks,

    Kam

  7. #7
    use your best eye kenhill3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamtsa View Post
    One comment and two question:

    (comment) Regarding #4, I saw several recomendations not to peel that thin clear plastic that covers the outer side of the patch.

    Question 1: what sand paper should I use? The one that comes with my patch kit seems very rough.

    Question 2: my tubes (Schwalbe) has some raised line marks on them. When I sand the tube around the hole, do I need to completly flaten and remove the raised lines?

    Thanks,

    Kam
    You can leave the clear plastic on, won't hurt. I have carefully peeled them off with no problem, though they sometimes tend to pull the patch up with them, so heck, just leave it on. The clear plastic actually helps when you press/burnish the patch down onto the tube.

    The included sandpaper works just fine. Some patch kits come with a little metal scuffer kinda like a cheese grater, now these seem a bit too rough to me, so I replace in the kit with sandpaper.

    The mold lines and such on the tube are no problem, the rubber all melts together anyway.
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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Did you put the patch on the tyre or on the tube?

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    Senior Member kamtsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
    Did you put the patch on the tyre or on the tube?
    Oops, by 'tire' I meant 'tube'.

    Kam

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    Huh? If your using regular old glue on patches then YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PUT GLUE ON THE PATCH! You simply put a thin layer of glue on the tube AFTER you roughed it lightly with a piece of fine emery paper (make sure you roughen an area slightly larger then the patch and apply the glue to the slightly larger area), then optionally you can wipe with an alcohol pad before putting the glue on, wait about 30 to 60 seconds for the glue to haze up (you can blow on it to speed up the action just don't spit on it), then press the patch on hard. The tube is good to go right then; once the tube is inside the tire inflation pressure of the tube against the tire will prevent the patch from blowing off. The clear plastic you can leave on or take off it won't matter one way or the other, I've always removed it.

    Now some people like a little more assurance, let me explain. Some after putting on that thin layer of glue and have waited for it to haze, put a SECOND thin layer on and wait for that to haze over before putting the patch on. I've never done that when I use to use glue patches.

    I like glueless patches because they hold forever and I don't have to worry about the glueing step, thus it's faster; and as an added bonus, no worrying about finding a dried out glue tube. Park is probably the best glueless and Rema is the best glue patch.

    By the way let me repeat, use a piece of FINE emery paper, not a rough one like what they provide the kit unless you use thick tubes. The real light weight 60grm type of tubes can be damaged with a rougher sand paper. And always remember to only light sand it, it's not a piece of wood! Your just going to roughen it very slightly.

  11. #11
    gbg
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    I believe they call it "Contact cement" for a reason.
    It is glued on contact (after appropriate drying before applying), therefore fill immediately (or sooner).

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    It's not contact-cement, but vulcanizing fluid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
    It's not contact-cement, but vulcanizing fluid.
    This is correct. However over the years the younger generation has come into the world of cycling and have no clue that prior to about the mid 60's we (including me) repaired bicycle tires (even I can't remember exactly how we use to do this) by using vulcanization fluid which we brushed on the tube then lit the thing on fire! It would burn fast and put itself out and seal or literally melt and bond the patch on so well it would never come off.

    But since then glue appeared that chemically bonds the patch to the tube there is no need for fire anymore which is good because children shouldn't be playing with fire, fire could melt todays ultrathin tubes, you could accidently start a forest fire.

    But more exactly cold vulcanizing fluid contains chemicals (the "accelerators" below) that do produce cross-links between the rubber molecules, just as hot vulcanizing (heat plus sulphur) changes the chemical structure of rubber. The wait-until-tacky prescription for cold vulcanizing fluid has a
    surprisingly simple explanation: "Vulcanizing fluid has two primary functions. First, it contains chemical accelerators which vulcanize the repair to the tire. Second, when dry, it leaves the prepared surface tacky, which helps hold the repair in place until vulcanization occurs.

    And believe it or not guys, especially all those doom sayers about glueless patches, but glueless patches do exactly the same thing! Once a glueless patch has been on awhile I cannot peel it off. For those that have had poor success with glueless patches, all I can say is your either using a cheap brand of patches or didn't put it on correctly because I've never had one fail or stay on just long enough to get home. I had a tube once that was 5 years old with 13 glueless patches placed on during those 5 years-none failed. I still have a mtb tube with a glueless patch on it that is now 6 years old-the glueless patch has been on 6 years and still holds air.

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    gbg
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
    It's not contact-cement, but vulcanizing fluid.
    Tomato, Tamato (ie. /təˈmɑːtoʊ/ and /təˈmeɪtoʊ/)

    From a how to guide (note the fire quote).

    4. Let the glue dry fully. Really! This kind of glue, also called contact cement, must dry completely before applying the patch. Many people are confused about this and do strange things including setting the glue on fire!
    Last edited by gbg; 05-24-09 at 08:29 AM.

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    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbg View Post
    4. Let the glue dry fully.
    This is the number one reason that people have problems with patches failing. They try to rush the job! Even a thin layer of glue on the tube will take more than a few seconds to dry. If you attempt to place the patch on wet glue, the patch will not stick properly. Let the tube and glue sit until there is no shininess to the surface at all. If the glue is slightly uneven...globs happen...keep waiting.

    As for the plastic cover, leave it or remove it. It doesn't really matter. If you've waited long enough, the patch won't come off.

    You can ride the patched tube immediately. The pressure on the patch might even help the bonding process.
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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Sometimes the area of the tube that's beyond the patch that's been softened by the vulcanizing fluid will stick to the tyre. There's some rubbing between the tube and tyre, so some talc will help prevent the repair from sticking to the inside of the tyre. The rubbing will move the sticking part differently than non-sticking and can loosen a patch before it's fully vulcanized to the tube.

    Personally I've had good luck with having some patience and clamping the patch & tube between two blocks of wood in a vise overnight.


    To those who are mechanically inclined and have some precision in their thinking and work, you can compare a "glue" versus "vulcanizing" fluid as the difference between brazing and welding. Or do a test, lay down a thin stripe of "glue", "contact cement" or "rubber cement" on one section of tube. And near it, lay down a stripe of "vulcanizing fluid". Walk away for 5-10 minutes and come back and rub on the two spots. The area with "glue", "contact cement" or "rubber cement" will rub off in little rubber balls (you've all done this with rubber-cement on paper before). However, the spot with true "vulcanizing fluid" will have nothing come off.

    Anyone ever build model planes, cars, ships when you were kids? Remember the difference between the thick gooey glue versus the thinner solvent "glues"?

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    gbg
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
    To those who are mechanically inclined and have some precision in their thinking and work, you can compare a "glue" versus "vulcanizing" fluid as the difference between brazing and welding. Or do a test, lay down a thin stripe of "glue", "contact cement" or "rubber cement" on one section of tube. And near it, lay down a stripe of "vulcanizing fluid". Walk away for 5-10 minutes and come back and rub on the two spots. The area with "glue", "contact cement" or "rubber cement" will rub off in little rubber balls (you've all done this with rubber-cement on paper before). However, the spot with true "vulcanizing fluid" will have nothing come off.
    I guess NORCO or BELL patching kits will never work then, since according to their labels they both contain "Rubber Cement".

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbg View Post
    Tomato, Tamato (ie. /təˈmɑːtoʊ/ and /təˈmeɪtoʊ/)

    From a how to guide (note the fire quote).

    4. Let the glue dry fully. Really! This kind of glue, also called contact cement, must dry completely before applying the patch. Many people are confused about this and do strange things including setting the glue on fire!
    I haven't seen the fire dancers in a long long time, when was the last time you saw this ritual performed?

    As far as glue is concern DANNYOXYZ is CORRECT! It's vulcanizing glue NOT contact cement... probably more accurately it's a little of both, the contact cement makes the patch stick initially then the other chemicals after a cure time (which can occur while the tube is in the tire) allow the chemical binding to take place. Cement word is used because nobody would understand the word cement vulcanization. The vulcanization takes place chemically and will make it virtually impossible to remove the patch without taking parts of the tube with it...contact cement will not do this, you can remove a patch that's been put on by just contact cement.

    http://www.bouncing-balls.com/chemis...canization.htm

    And there's no need for vice to be used on a tube and patch to make the dang thing stay on!! That remark is just pure lunacy written by a

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    gbg
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    Quote Originally Posted by froze View Post
    I haven't seen the fire dancers in a long long time, when was the last time you saw this ritual performed?

    As far as glue is concern DANNYOXYZ is CORRECT! It's vulcanizing glue NOT contact cement... probably more accurately it's a little of both, the contact cement makes the patch stick initially then the other chemicals after a cure time (which can occur while the tube is in the tire) allow the chemical binding to take place. Cement word is used because nobody would understand the word cement vulcanization. The vulcanization takes place chemically and will make it virtually impossible to remove the patch without taking parts of the tube with it...contact cement will not do this, you can remove a patch that's been put on by just contact cement.

    http://www.bouncing-balls.com/chemis...canization.htm

    And there's no need for vice to be used on a tube and patch to make the dang thing stay on!! That remark is just pure lunacy written by a
    Bingo!
    I have 4 different patching kits by different manufacturers and the ALL contain RUBBER CEMENT.

    Rubber cement, contact cement is a colloquialism used for common understanding (when referring to tire repair).

    When is the last time you saw someone actually "drop a hammer" when they dial it up to 400 watts.
    Not that loosing 2-4lbs wouldn't help you in a sprint!
    Nobody gets their panties in a knot when someone says that.

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbg View Post
    I guess NORCO or BELL patching kits will never work then, since according to their labels they both contain "Rubber Cement".
    Well, they may not work as well as Rema or Camel patch kits with true vulcanizing fluid.

    Or it could be the marketing folks at Norco & Bell don't understand the bike biz, they are after all, not manufacturers; they just put their labels on products made some numerous other subs. And there's also a component of customer-expectations and expertise as well. The majority of people do not know the differences between "rubber cement" and "vulcanizing fluid". And the marketers know that and want the customers to have "warm fuzzies" when picking up a product, so they'll use terms a layman would understand. Get it?

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    Senior Member LarryMelman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
    Sometimes the area of the tube that's beyond the patch that's been softened by the vulcanizing fluid will stick to the tyre. There's some rubbing between the tube and tyre, so some talc will help prevent the repair from sticking to the inside of the tyre. The rubbing will move the sticking part differently than non-sticking and can loosen a patch before it's fully vulcanized to the tube.
    Which makes a good case for simply not using the patched tube right away. Use a previously patched tube, and set the newly patched tube aside for another day. (The softened area will eventually harden or set, right?)

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbg View Post
    When is the last time you saw someone actually "drop a hammer" when they dial it up to 400 watts.
    Not that loosing 2-4lbs wouldn't help you in a sprint!
    Nobody gets their panties in a knot when someone says that.
    Because those phrases are commonly understood with their intended meaning.

    However "rubber cement" is a misnomer and noobies will often confuse this:



    as this:



    And then we get countless posts on why their patching job didn't hold. And if you don't understand what the difference is, well, you're probably one of them.
    Last edited by DannoXYZ; 05-24-09 at 01:56 PM.

  23. #23
    gbg
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
    Because those phrases are commonly understood with their intended meaning.

    However "rubber cement" is a misnomer and noobies will often confuse this:



    as this:



    And then we get countless posts on why their patching job didn't hold. And if you don't understand what the difference is, well, you're probably one of them.
    I guess your reading comprehension is very low.
    Rubber cement, contact cement is a colloquialism used for common understanding (when referring to tire repair).
    I have 4 different patching kits by different manufacturers and the ALL contain RUBBER CEMENT (This is what it says on their labeling information).
    Now you don't want me to have to scan these 4 labels and post them do you??

  24. #24
    gbg
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    Not mine, but I think you can extrapolate (hopefully) the letters on the tube "Ru Ce"

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    But do YOU know what's actually in those tubes labeled "Rubber Cement"???

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