Light Makes Right
Campy Comp Triple vs. Sugino XD2
Some of you may have remembered an earlier thread I posted about chainrings for Campy Comp Triple......still debating cranks for my build but getting more serious now that my frame is finally on it's way.
So my question: I've seen a lot of conflicting opinions about the Sugino crank. Some say they're awesome, some not so much. But the "not so much" opinions are often along the lines of "you get what you pay for" and not very factual. For example one opinion said they'd be heavier and flexier than more expensive cranks - but they're listed as lighter than Campy and have "wider" (looking from the side) arms than campy which all else being equal should mean they're stiffer (not to mention that my wussy legs shouldn't flex either of them!).
I want smaller rings than stock on the Campy and a Campy crank plus three new rings is going to be over $400! Maybe over $500. Price isn't a huge factor for me - I'll be pairing either with a Phil Wood BB, a Chorus medium cage rear-D and hung on a $2000 frame......but at the same time $100 vs. $500 is a pretty big spread if the difference isn't much. I've thought of just getting a Campy 30-40-50 for starters and see how I like it, but that's a compromise.....
So I'd like to here some opinions on these two cranks. Also, pretty sure I know the answer to this but just to confirm: any triple be it Shimano, Sugino, Campy, whatever will have the same spacing between the rings and compatible with any indexed system, right?
Reading at the Rivendale website, it doesn't should like the chainrings are very good and may no work with 10 speed. How about some more details on the chainring setup you're considering?
FWIW, I rode a Campy triple drivetrain for several years in the Colorado mountains, but I chose FSA cranks with ISIS BBs, that I could get in a 53/39/30 and cheaply change the little ring to a 28T. With a 12-25 cassette, I got the same low gear as a Shimano 30/27 setup. The ISIS BB is disappearing, so it's no longer a great choice. Back when I was buying FSA cranks, I got them for about $150 on E-bay.
I'd be more inclined to look at a Shimano crank although they are kind of ugly. I'm not found of FSA's outboard bearing crank design. They've had lot of problems with the left crankarm and spindle interface.
Why buy a crank new and buy all new rings for it? You don't have to.
If you're going to spend $400 for a crank, and you want a nice one, look at the TA Carmina. You can get any length arms from 155 to 185, choose your BCD(no "special" rings required") Get the 110/74 spider, they have them in Silver, not black as shown. The spiders are removable and interchangeable. A nice 156mm Q factor too.
On top of that you'll get 3 TA rings of your choice. These are arguably the best rings out there. 9/10 speed rings.
Ignore what the web site says about BCD,BB and Chainrings, they just give that as an example as the crank is sold to your specs. Call or email them.
Here's more on the TA website: http://www.specialites-ta.com/produits/ped_car_gb.htm#
Click on the "more product info" . It tells you about all you need to know about them.
Light Makes Right
Unfortunately that Q may be too narrow for me - I'll have to check with my fitter. He's recommending a pretty wide tread. Ouch. Didn't really PLAN to spend $400 for a crank - just that that's what I'm looking at for a Campy plus three more rings!
As far as gears go - I was thinking something along the lines of 26-36-48. Shimano is a possibility I guess, but I'd be back where I started. In fact it's worse. An Ultegra triple is $300 or so, and I'd still need at least two new rings.
Can you even get smaller chainrings for the Campy? The BCD is 135/74 mm and the selection of outer rings will be quite limited. For example, the only 135 mm chainrings Harris Cyclery lists are 1/8" track rings and their reference to QBP's chainring selection is no better
Shimano road cranks use the more common 130 mm outer BCD and there are more choices. If you can find an older 9-speed Ultegra or 105 triple crank with the Octalink bb, you have a large selection of rings and these are available at much lower cost. The 105 was available in 50/39/30 configuration.
BTW, a 26T chainring can be substituted for the 30T on any crank with a 74 mm bcd granny ring. I've done this on numerous Shimano cranks and even on a 10-speed Campy Chorus triple crank and it works very well.
You can't make a 48/36/26 from a Campy crank. A 39T is the smallest possible middle ring. since Campy's BCD is 135/74mm. You'd need a crank with a 110/74mm BCD or an MTB crank.
Originally Posted by GV27
Consider what cassette you plan to mate with the crank. A standard triple, coupled to a 13-29 produces some very low gears.
It sound like the Sugino is a good option for you. Velo Orange sells it with Sugino's "better" chainrings, the ones with ramps and pins. 48-36-36. http://www.velo-orange.com/suoldlotr.html
Rivendell states theirs come with the basic rings, no ramps or pins, though their photos show the ramped ones.
As far as 10 or 9 speed or whatever speed crankset, I don't think it matters does it? From the Harris web site:http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/cranks/11074.html
7-speed, 8-speed 9-speed, 10-speed?
Component manufacturers like to sell you lots of new parts, even if you don't need them. This has led to much confusion as various parts are labeled as if they are incompatible with other parts even though they are not. The following parts ONLY are "speed specific":
- Indexed Shifters These need to have the correct number and spacing of detents ("clicks") to match the system they'll be used with.
- Cassettes It is really the cassette that determines how many speeds you have in back.
- Chain As you go to more sprockets on the cassette, you need a narrower chain. However, using a narrower chain with an older system rarely presents any problem
Light Makes Right
I live high on Green Mountain, man - I need some low gears! One possibility is to just replace the inner ring - that's the important one. I could live with a 39 middle easily. The big ring doesn't really matter all that much - just that I'd use a 48 more than a 50. And 53? Forget that - that's an Eddy Merckx gear. I ain't racin' the thing - I'll chill out and coast long before I'll turn over a 53-12!
Really what I need to decide on is the shifting. I've always friction shifted road bikes (my road racer is 25 years old and all Super Record, my commuter uses bar-end shifters) and don't really see a problem with it, but everyone I tell in person about this bike build looks at me like I'm nuts for not doing Ergo/STI. So that's my hesitation - what do I do if I want to do Ergo later? I suppose I can get rings for the Sugino that have the appropriate ramps and pins for 10-speed Ergo if I decide to do that later. I've looked around and 9-speed Ergo levers seem to be completely unavailable. Which gives me pause as probably 10-speed will be the same situation in a couple of years and 11-speed a couple years after that after they go to 12-speed. Oi vei - I should probably just get the Sugino and friction shift my 8-speed cluster and avoid that whole insanity!
Light Makes Right
Garthr - I was composing that as you were posting yours. Kept getting distracted.
The Riv info is confusing. One, as you pointed out, they say no ramps and pins yet picture them. They also say they'll work for "triggers" (for lack of a better generic term - Ergo/STI/Double-Tap/whatever they call the MTB systems is a mouthful and a half) up to 9-speed - you need that for 9-speed just as much for 10-speed. Are the 10-speed rings thinner? It seems like that at some point as the make the chains narrower and narrower they'd have to me. Otherwise I can't imagine what the difference would be.
I promised myself as I was starting this that I'd avoid that madness 9, 10, 11, 12, 15-speed madness. I should make my life easier and go back to that stance! That issue just reared it's ugly head when I went to actually pull the trigger and buy the stuff........
GV27 . . . I know what you mean . . it is madness! There is no end to it, and it's getting worse. Drivetrain parts are becoming more and more specific if you want indexed shifting. The forums are filled with people with X speed shifters wanting to go to xy speeds and finding they need a new cassette, FD and RD, chain and shifters.
Bikes are not computers, we shouldn't have to "upgrade" every year or two. If you don't you're labeled "retro". I'd be perfectly happy with 6 or 7 gears on a triple. I'm having a hard time considering using a 8 or 9 speed cassette!
In regards to "10 speed" cranks, there is no such thing. You can use that crank with any drivetrain. The main thing about 10 speed is the cassette is narrower, so the chain must be too, and then your shifter must be different to account for the spacing change. Fun huh?
Without STI/Ergo, you can do any gears you want. If people think you're nuts for not wanting it . . ask them who's bike is it anyways? Who's riding it .....Me or you?
I use a 26/44/48 with a 13-32 7sp. I can use the 44 ring in all 7 gears, and the 44/32 gets me up most hills, but when I need it, I have the 26 ring for spinning uphill. It shifts very well from the 26 to 44, using a 105 9sp double FD. This is just an example. You could run anything, say a 26/38/48 with a 12-twenty-something cassette and have gears from the low 20's to over 100. You can play around with combos on a web site like this http://home.earthlink.net/~mike.sherman/shift.html
You can adjust it for any wheel size or cassette/freewheel. This may help you find a good combo. Remeber too, a 110/74 BCD crank offer the widest range and availability of rings of any crank made. You don't have to get $75 rings if you don't want to , and you can change rings as you wish down the road without worry of your "system" shifting properly, if using friction.
A few facts about chainrings and spacing. Unless you have some very old chainrings, you'll find the teeth to be about 2mm thick, dating back to 7 speed. This hasn't changed, but the chainring spacing has changed a little.
Shimano moved the little ring closer to the big ring when they introduced 9 speed, but I've never read of anyone documenting the exact amount. Campy made no change when they came out with their first 9 speed drivetrain in 1997, but they moved the big ring .4mm closer to the little ring when they first introduced 10 speed in 2000.
With 11 speed, the big ring has been moved another .6mm closer to the little ring and the teeth are .1mm thinner to match the .1mm reduced width between the inner plates of the chain.
Light Makes Right
Yeah, I think that's what I'm gonna do. Good to confirm that the 10-speed rings are the same thickness. I wasn't really sure - I know that at SOME point they'll have to get thinner as they keep "upgrading".
The rear cassette will be (initially) an early-mid 90's Record 8-speed (on the matching hub - just drop-dead gorgeous!) IIRC 12-28. It's still nearly new as the I switched it out for a......12-32 maybe?......to get some lower gears on my road bike with a 42/52 SR crank. Hub looks new and is actually fairly low miles. I jut can't hack those gears in the hills anymore so haven't ridden it a lot in the last decade. My Father's SR hub will be going on that bike with proper 6-speed freewheel. Sorry to go off topic!
I think I'll go with the Sugino - maybe get it from Velo-Orange with the (possibly) better rings. I have a big credit at Riv but need other stuff from them anyhow. I need to order those sweet new standard reach (aka "long-reach" - just like McDs only having m, l and xl fries - grr) sidepulls from VO any way. Prolly a rack or two and maybe a bag from them.
That TA you posted is SWEEEEET, Garthr, but perhaps a bit rich for me. It'll be a fairly "rich" bike anyhow - it's a custom Mercian frame - but I don't see those TAs being anything like 4x as good as the Suginos and I'm not looking to spend money just to spend money. e.g. I'm putting on a Chorus rear D instead of Record for the same reason. It may be 5% better - maybe - but 2x the price. I guess you could make the same argument for Centaur.....but......anyhow, now I'm rambling!
Thanks again for all the help!
edit: ahh, there's the answer on the move to thinner chainrings!
The 10, 11 speeds and more thing has gotta stop somewhere. Hopefully sooner than later. How many cogs can they put on a cassette anyways? I watch some pro cycling on the web and such, and I notice chains breaking recently. I don't really remember that being an issue so much in years past.
I suppose Shimano has ideas to bring 10sp to mtb's. Good luck with that If road riders are breaking them, I can only imagine what mtb riders will do to them.
Yeah, the TA crank is a lot. The exchange rate has been murder. 10 years ago I think I paid around $180 for some 185mm TA Zephyr arms. I need a new set for a new bike, and in 185mm length I don't have a lot of choice but to pay the premium. That's okay though, it's only money, and it has a way of working itself out in the long run. Bikes are long term investments, not airline tickets
Happy riding on you bikes Chris.
Most recent chain failures at pro races have been SRAM, but I've never read any details as to the nature of the failure. The most common failure is an outer plate coming off a pin. With nearly all 9-10-11 speed chains now of the flush-pin design, this type of failure is most likely installation error or some sort of shifting problem that pries the chain apart. A narrower chain is no more likely to fail from this problem than a wider one. The key is the strength of the peening applied to the ends of the pins. I can tell you for certain that the new Campy 11 chains have a very heavy peen. When you break one of these chains to adjust the length, the peened material breaks off and leaves a ring of steel on the drive pin.
I am already seeing signs of reduced chain life with the 11 speed chain, but Campy chains wear much longer than any other I've tested, so I expect that the worst case will be Campy 11 chains only lasting about as long the other brand's 10 speed model. I was hoping for 4,000 miles but maybe I'll only get 3,000. Only time will tell. I have used the wider 6.1mm Campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles and 5,000 would not be unheard of with the 5.9mm model. The new 11 speeed cogs are the same thickness as Shimano 10, or about 10% thinner than before.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 06-18-09 at 06:45 AM.
Light Makes Right
I have no idea what the failure modes are, but broken chains used to be extremely rare in pro races. Now they're getting somewhat common. I think you're right though - I believe both David Millar's "I lost a Giro stage due to a broken chain so now I'll huck the bike over the barriers" and Fabian Cancellara's "I broke my chain on the Koppenberg with no support vehicles so now I'll coast back down with my chain over my shoulder" incidents were both with SRAM chains.
SRAM's new $$$$$$ MTB group is 2x10!
Originally Posted by Garthr
Originally Posted by Garthr
Last edited by GV27; 06-18-09 at 06:41 AM.