Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-06-09, 11:21 AM   #1
tiago
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Craked steel frame (photo)

Hi,

I recently bought a used On-one inbred 29er on ebay that was supposed to have a scratch on the top tube badly covered by messy paint. On closer inspection, and after peeling off some paint, the frame has a 15cm *crack* on the side of the top tube. The tube wall gives in with minimal force from my thumb. Is this wealdable in a trustworthy way? How about cost? The frame is DN6 cromoly steel.



BTW the ebay seller's ID seller is easterpark so beware. He told me he had broken a leg or arm riding just after the transaction and that makes me believe in Karma. I am also really bummed as after several upgrades I am broke and with no bike to ride.

Tiago
tiago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-09, 11:26 AM   #2
illwafer
)) <> ((
 
illwafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
did you contact paypal? you should be pursuing the seller thoroughly. if you get your money back, you won't have to worry about fixing it.
illwafer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-09, 11:39 AM   #3
tiago
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I bought it over two months ago and only today discovered that the scratch was indeed a crack. I was away for 5 weeks and before leaving gave this this guy a positive feedback.
There are other horror stories about this bike such as missing the on-one proprietary "canti-bosses" and having a threaded fork on a threadless setup, and the headset had a mixture of threaded threadless parts

How about welding?
tiago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-09, 12:01 PM   #4
tradtimbo
Senior Member
 
tradtimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monterey, California
Bikes: 1982 Fuji Team, 1979 Raleigh Team Record, 1984 Raleigh Team USA, Japanese Raleigh Super Course, 2000 LeMond Buenos Aires, 90's Schwinn High Plains, 1978? Austro Daimler Inter 10
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That "crack" is oddly straight as an arrow. Looks like cheapo seamed tubing to me. You might want to talk to On-One as well. Maybe a bogus tube set?

Go ahead and have it welded. Problem is, maybe you should save that money and try again?
tradtimbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 02:48 AM   #5
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 5,504
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Welding thin-walled tubing is tricky business even for the experienced. It'd be very easy to burn through getting the seam going. Even if it's successful at first the seam will shrink as it cools, adding stress to the material and maybe even warping the frame.
One repair that I''ve been curious to try for some time is to sand the tube down to bare metal and then wrap some CF tape + epoxy around it as a splint. Done correctly I can't see any scenario where the frame would fail unexpectedly while JRA after such a repair, and I'd be willing to ride it.
Barring that I'd try to find another tube with a matching diameter, cut a suitably overlapping patch out of it and braze it over the crack with a nice low-temp solder with good capillary action. Silver comes to mind.
dabac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 05:14 AM   #6
mike
Senior Member
 
mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Snowy midwest
Bikes:
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I wonder if an old fashioned brazing wouldn't be better than welding in this case because the tube walls are reported to be so thin?
mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 05:37 AM   #7
nitropowered
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens, Ohio
Bikes: Custom Custom Custom
Posts: 5,104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Statute of limitations is 90 days. You still have options to persue rememdy
nitropowered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 05:40 AM   #8
nitropowered
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens, Ohio
Bikes: Custom Custom Custom
Posts: 5,104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A competent welder should be able to fix that. Its a straight line so even a welder with not so great tig skills can fix that seam.

Or since its steel, you can just braze a line of brass down the seam then sand clean.

Either option, you'll wreck your paint
nitropowered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 05:55 AM   #9
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 5,504
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike View Post
...the tube walls are reported to be so thin?
Well, I can't vouch for this particular frame, but I've built stuff out of cut down bike frames several times and it can be quite challenging. Conduit pipe is a dream to work with in comparison.
dabac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 06:43 AM   #10
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 28,918
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
You can:

1. Contact the seller and paypal about a refund as the goods were not as represented.

2. Try to have the frame crack brazed and repainted there by throwing good money after bad.

3. Suck it up and accept you were cheated and take the loss as a lesson in human nature. You now have an interesting art item to hang on your wall.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 01:28 PM   #11
tiago
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Thanks for the advice on welding/brazing and ebay.

The main thing is that the freaking bike didn't break while I was riding it. And I am very grateful about with my general state of good health.

Regarding ebay, I didn't know that I could still ask for a refund after giving positive feedback, so I will look into that. I have just emailed the seller just to make the point that I am ingood health but bad things could have happend.

Failing this I might ask the advice of local welders but I am now unsure of the reliability of the repaired frame. As tradtimbo pointed out this could be a crack along the welded seam of cheap(er) chromoly. The On-one website is ambiguous about this:

"We use different profiles of DN6 depending on the frame. The Inbred uses the lightest grade, the Gimp a custom drawn grade for dirt jumping, and the Runt uses a super-strong straight-gauge format for BMX abuse."

When I asked On-one "is the tubbing seamed or drawn?" I still got an ambiguous answer:

> the Inbreds are now custom DN6 double
> butted 4130 chromoly steel tubing
> that part of the website is really old.. the Gimp and Runt
> are dead....

Mine is an older (2005?) bike with the sliding dropouts, but I don't even know if the new ones are drawn or seamed. Is a Kona Unit 2-9 made from drarwn chromoly tubbing or are cheaper frames all the same?
tiago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 01:46 PM   #12
tiago
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Humm... at least on ebay.co.uk there is a time limit of 45 days after the payment to open a case in the resolution center. Looks like it will only be a matter of bad conscience for seller.
tiago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 02:04 PM   #13
norwood
GO BIG RED
 
norwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hastings,NE
Bikes: 1996 Bianchi Veloce 1993 Bridgestone MB-3 1992 Trek 700 1992 Trek 820
Posts: 678
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike View Post
I wonder if an old fashioned brazing wouldn't be better than welding in this case because the tube walls are reported to be so thin?
There's nothing "old fashsioned" about brazing, but yes I tend to agree it might be better. Bottom line, I would definitely take it to a framebuilder for a determination instead of just any old brazer/welder. Those tubes are quite thin.
norwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 04:56 PM   #14
nitropowered
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens, Ohio
Bikes: Custom Custom Custom
Posts: 5,104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiago View Post
Humm... at least on ebay.co.uk there is a time limit of 45 days after the payment to open a case in the resolution center. Looks like it will only be a matter of bad conscience for seller.
yeah but your creditcard company is usually 90 days. but I guess if you just used paypal funds, its 45 days.
nitropowered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 06:18 PM   #15
kramnnim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 705
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you look down the inside of the seat tube with a flashlight, you might be able to see a seam...

I don't know anything about welding or metallurgy, etc, but it doesn't seem at all possible for seamless tubing to crack in such a nice straight line.
kramnnim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 07:21 PM   #16
estabro
lungbuster
 
estabro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 132 & Bush
Bikes: Trek 5000 Road, SSFG Road, Kona FS MTN, Frankenbike
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Am I the only one that thinks duct tape can fix it...?
estabro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 07:25 PM   #17
Ex Pres
#39
 
Ex Pres's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: the 35223 (AL)
Bikes:
Posts: 6,280
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
I don't think you're allowed to ride an "InBred" unless you're from Kentucky.
Ex Pres is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 07:38 PM   #18
kennyc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Camden TN, y'all!
Bikes:
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"Seamless" rated tube can still have seams, trust me. Your tube should be able to be welded by a competant craftsman. I would stress relieve (post weld heat treat), since this is a significant crack right on the joint seam...may even consider replacement of that tube with material of known parentage.
Keep us posted, good luck!
kennyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 08:48 PM   #19
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Yeah, seamless tubing actually starts out the same as seamed tubing. It's made from flat-sheets which is rolled and welded into seamed tubing. To make "seamless tubing" from that, a mandrel is inserted and rolled again to even out the seam. I suspect in this case that the tubing wasn't seamless with the extra rolling step, which forges and strengthens the seam.

Laying a bead of brass via brazing would work fine. But I would worry about the seams on the tubing giving out in other areas.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-09, 09:38 PM   #20
tradtimbo
Senior Member
 
tradtimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monterey, California
Bikes: 1982 Fuji Team, 1979 Raleigh Team Record, 1984 Raleigh Team USA, Japanese Raleigh Super Course, 2000 LeMond Buenos Aires, 90's Schwinn High Plains, 1978? Austro Daimler Inter 10
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Yeah, seamless tubing actually starts out the same as seamed tubing. It's made from flat-sheets which is rolled and welded into seamed tubing. To make "seamless tubing" from that, a mandrel is inserted and rolled again to even out the seam. I suspect in this case that the tubing wasn't seamless with the extra rolling step, which forges and strengthens the seam.

Laying a bead of brass via brazing would work fine. But I would worry about the seams on the tubing giving out in other areas.
You are wrong according to Tim Paterek. Seamless tubing begins with a solid steel rod. It is heated to red hot and pierced lengthwise to form a crude tube.
tradtimbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-09, 05:56 AM   #21
tiago
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Thanks for the continued input,

I peered inside the seat tube using a flashlight as suggested and couldn't see any seam. So at least that tube IS seamless. I have contacted a framebuilder across the country that gave me two options:
- replace the top tube and repaint for 140 GBP (224 USD)
- braze a thin section of tubing over the crack for 30 GBP (48 USD)
Mailing should be 15 to 20 GBP.

I feel bad about just binning a frame but since a new identical frame costs 160 GBP mailed to me I will have to think about the options.Hopefully a custom paint job would be better than the poor On-one factory paint.

Tiago
tiago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-09, 06:57 AM   #22
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 28,918
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
"Seamless" rated tube can still have seams, trust me.
There are two types of "seamless", butted or straight gauge bike tubing.

The highest quality (and price) tubing is truly seamless and made by starting with a solid piece of round stock that is pierced lengthwise and then passed over a series of mandrels and through dies to achieve the desired diameter and wall thickness(es).

Lower cost steel tubing is made by rolling a piece of flat stock over a form and welding the edges together. The resulting tube is then passed over mandrels and through dies that form the final shape and, if done right, make the seam almost undetectable. The OP's inability to see a seam inside his frame doesn't mean the tubing is truly seamless and the fact it split lengthwise suggests otherwise.

BTW, the fold and weld technique is also used for some very expensive exotic materials that aren't available in rounds or tubing of the right size or are too difficult to work. Early 6/4 Ti frames were made this way since 6/4 tubing wasn't available.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-09, 07:08 AM   #23
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,532
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Yeah, seamless tubing actually starts out the same as seamed tubing. It's made from flat-sheets which is rolled and welded into seamed tubing.
True seamless tubing starts as a solid ingot that is pierced by a mandrel while hot and soft. It is then drawn through a series of dies to the final diameter and wall thickness. At no point is it rolled and welded. C.f. Reynolds own description of the process from their "Top Tubes" brochure.

Some relatively modern tubes (Reynolds 501, True Temper, Columbus Aelle, etc.) start out as seamed tubes in the manner you describe, and are subsequently drawn through dies to achieve the final dimensions and obliterate the seam, but these are not true seamless tubes.

The OP's frame appears to be made from inexpensive seamed tubing, which is not mandrel-drawn and thus more prone to separation at the seam.
JohnDThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-09, 07:17 AM   #24
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,532
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiago View Post
I have contacted a framebuilder across the country that gave me two options:
- replace the top tube and repaint for 140 GBP (224 USD)
- braze a thin section of tubing over the crack for 30 GBP (48 USD)
If you're concerned about appearance, replace the tube. Otherwise, the patch will work fine.
JohnDThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-09, 07:26 AM   #25
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 28,918
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiago View Post
I feel bad about just binning a frame but since a new identical frame costs 160 GBP mailed to me I will have to think about the options.Hopefully a custom paint job would be better than the poor On-one factory paint.
My recommendation is to get the new frame. The cost of the repairs, repainting plus shipping will total a large fraction of the cost of a new one and you will know the frame's history.

The one you bought has obviously been damaged and/or abused. The original seller certainly knew something serious had happened to it or he wouldn't have misrepresented it on e-bay. Cut your losses and replace it.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:24 PM.