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Old 09-28-09, 07:02 AM   #1
layedback1
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when will it end

When will the push to add gears to bikes end. My Rans has 27 gears, and even that is probably too many. Now there are 10 and I think I have heard of someone having 11 speeds in the rear. This is over kill and makes no sense. Ever more gears call for thinner chains that are weaker and wear out faster. Also more cogs in the rear call for more dish making the rear wheel weaker.
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Old 09-28-09, 07:14 AM   #2
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Thinner chains don't wear out faster, although they may be less robust in other ways.
Rear wheel dish hasn't changed since the first 8-speeds.
10-speeds may not have much real advantage over 8, but I don't think they are "too many".
I think Campy probably realizes 11-speeds was a mistake.
So I think the answer is... it has already ended with 10.
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Old 09-28-09, 07:29 AM   #3
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As noted, wheel dish hasn't changed since the introduction of 8-speed cassettes and even 8-speed had very little more dish than 6/7-speed as the dropout width increased from 126 to 130 mm (or from 130 to 135 mm for MTBs) along with the extra cassette width.

Campy seems to have gotten away with 11-speed since their 10-speed cassettes are a bit wider than Shimano's so there was room to crowd in one more cog without obsoleting their previous hubs. Whether they view it as a mistake, time will tell.

I started riding with 6-speed freewheels and have considered every increase up to 10-speed as a plus. 11-speed is a lot harder to justify as there are no obvious gaps in any reasonable 10-speed cassette range.
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Old 09-28-09, 09:33 AM   #4
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I think it ended with 9-speed. My 10-speed Dura-Ace drivetrain is significantly more finicky than my 9-speed 105 drivetrain.

It's like CPU speed in Laptops- nobody needs 4 GHz processors when they're doing word processing and web browsing. Component makers add speeds because they don't have enough imagination or budget to actually innovate, and they need to make the old stuff obsolete so we keep buying more.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:19 PM   #5
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I don't think they will stop at 11. To get a better range with no gaps is to get away from the cogs all together. Things like the belt drive system will initiate better in hub gearing. This will lead to research in the "infinite increment" gearing they have been working on for years. I think it works much like the brake in a coaster brake hub that can expand and contract to change the gear using a cone, so you wont get "more" gears just a more expansive range.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:32 PM   #6
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I don't think they will stop at 11. To get a better range with no gaps is to get away from the cogs all together. Things like the belt drive system will initiate better in hub gearing. This will lead to research in the "infinite increment" gearing they have been working on for years. I think it works much like the brake in a coaster brake hub that can expand and contract to change the gear using a cone, so you wont get "more" gears just a more expansive range.
What you are describing is a "Continually Variable Transmission" (CVT) and it has been "the bike transmission of the future" for 100 years or more. It is likely to always be the transmission of the future.

Actually, now there is one comercially available. The NuVinci CVT is available for bicycle applications and does provide infinite gearing choices through out its range. The downside is weight (almost 9 pounds), cost and a reduction in mechanical efficiency.

Unfortunately, at this point there is no bike gearing method lighter, more efficient, cheaper and with a better gearing range than derailleurs and chainrings/cogs/chains.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by layedback1 View Post
My Rans has 27 gears...
You may have 27 different combinations available, but you don't have 27 usefully different ratios - probably more like 15-18 of them.

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When will the push to add gears to bikes end.
Well, with each added gear the benefit while JRA of adding one more gear will diminish. But some people are willing to pay top dollar to be the first with the latest, so we can expect manufacturers to keep looking for new angles a while more.

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...and even that is probably too many.
speak for yourself. The more gears you have, the closer you can run to your fatigue limit while still maintainning a cadence where you are effective.

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.... Now there are 10 and I think I have heard of someone having 11 speeds in the rear. This is over kill and makes no sense.
I don't know about that. There's a rumor about Shimano launching a 10-spd MTB line, which would give you almost the range of a current riple from a double crank.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:39 PM   #8
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shimano has a patent for 14. according to the patent not all cogs come in direct contact with the freehub, so there's no increase in dish.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:44 PM   #9
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I don't know about that. There's a rumor about Shimano launching a 10-spd MTB line, which would give you almost the range of a current riple from a double crank.
SRAM has already done that with their XX (2x10) MTB group.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:49 PM   #10
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one can also combine SRAM's dual drive hub with 10sp cassette to have 3x3x10.

and if you really want to get crazy with gears, there are a few makers out there that offer cranksets that can use 4 or 5 chainrings.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:50 PM   #11
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As with many things ..... the manufacturers are making it more complicated than need be. Do you really need 9 or 10 cogs on the back? How many gears can you really use? I have a 21 speed, which I get 16-17 distinct gears. More cogs sells to the naive public. It's just business, but it can make it difficult getting what you want when you're a pawn for Shimano or Campy. If you don't want more gears, just don't buy them. Stock up on what you like today.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:52 PM   #12
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one can also combine SRAM's dual drive hub with 10sp cassette to have 3x3x10.
I wonder if anyone had combined a Rholoff 14-speed IG hub with a 10-speed cassette and a triple crank? Just think, 420 gears!!!
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Old 09-28-09, 03:56 PM   #13
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I can't believe thinner chains don't wear the cogs faster unless they are made of significantly better stuff. Also, the sideplates seem thinner, though I could be wrong. That would lead to stretch happening sooner.
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Old 09-28-09, 03:57 PM   #14
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chains don's stretch at the side plates.
chains wear out at the rollers, the pivot points.
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Old 09-28-09, 04:21 PM   #15
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chains don's stretch at the side plates.
chains wear out at the rollers, the pivot points.
would that be the rollers or the pivot points? And if your sideplates don't pivot, what do you call the part that does go around the pins?
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Old 09-28-09, 04:40 PM   #16
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http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
there you have it.
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Old 09-28-09, 05:13 PM   #17
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this bike was originally equipped with 105 gears. Triple chain ring, 5 speed mid drive and 7 speed cluster on the wheel. It was done that way for range on the 20 inch wheel, no other reason. I never did the math to determine the number of redundant gears, but there were many.
It has a Rohloff now, and theoretically, I could use any of 5 gears on the mid drive to drive the hub making for 70 gears, but all but the largest,(34 teeth) would exceed Rohloff's input ratio limit.
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Old 09-28-09, 05:17 PM   #18
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haha we are having a discussion about this in another post beofer I read this one.

You only need 1 gear.
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Old 09-28-09, 05:29 PM   #19
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Am I going to be the first to say it?

Troll, or at least Trollish.
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Old 09-28-09, 05:37 PM   #20
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The last article I read on Campy's 11-speed chain was that it is actually STRONGER than the 10 (even though thinner), due to their using a stronger steel alloy for it.

I'm with the original thread - what's going on now is mere advertizing and overkill.
I think the trend of the future is IGH. Get all that intricate stuff sealed away from the dirt, moisture, and hazards of the environment. Of course, the "backyard mechanics" job is going to get alot harder, but.....
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Old 09-28-09, 05:51 PM   #21
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The internal gear hub used to be the choice for everyone except serious racers and as derailer gearing became cheaper and more reliable IGH hubs all but vanished from the market.

Things are changing again as IGH hubs have improved to a point (more gear range) that they will probably replace derailer gears on everything except racing bikes.

They make so much sense for most people and an 8 speed IGH offers a wide enough range for pretty much anyone.
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Old 09-28-09, 05:53 PM   #22
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Campy Record 11 speed cassette = $449.00

No thanks.
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Old 09-28-09, 05:56 PM   #23
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Campy Record 11 speed cassette = $449.00

No thanks.
That steel alloy must contain some gold!
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Old 09-28-09, 06:10 PM   #24
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BF rumor says new XTR will have 10.
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Old 09-28-09, 06:22 PM   #25
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Am I going to be the first to say it?

Troll, or at least Trollish.
Quite..

TO the OP:

Just because YOU don't need an 11 speed rear end doesn't mean somone can't have a use for it. It is infinitely useful in racing applications, and if you note its not like EVERY drivetrain is now 11 speed, Campy only offers it on their high end Groupsets. 10 speed and lower is still there and still good for most people. Shimano sells groupsets on tons of bikes that are 8 and 9 speed (Sora and Tiagra). They are the more common setups. Just because a new technology in bikes comes out doesn't mean it is forced upon you to upgrade, and just because YOU don't need it doesn't mean plenty of other people can't find a use for it.

WTF was the point of this post?
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