Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1
    Unintentional Troll Scrotze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles (under a bridge)
    My Bikes
    Converted Bianchi Piaggio
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    First wheel build...ever.

    I just wanted to share my first wheel build ever. I bought the whole shebang on Wheelbuilder.com (any comments on these guys by the way?) I used the Phil Wood HF rear track (single fixed) hub along with the velocity B43 rim and DT competition double butted spokes.
    Some other details: 32 spokes, 3-cross pattern.

    So basically...nothing special, but I am fairly proud of it seeing as how it's my first wheel build (awwww)

    Some comments I have:
    -Velocity's stuff seems to be (or has been) "the standard" of rims in terms of strength and durability (Now I know I'm wrong, I only say this because Velocity is on the majority of bikes around my area) but I gotta say I was a bit disappointed to see the SPOT WHERE THE RIM WAS JOINED (the term escapes me at the moment). For an anal-retentive person this is not a pretty sight, but I'm only semi-A-R. My real concern is the strength of the rim at this particular spot. Is that bad? Should I be worried? Is that bad?.

    -Yet again, I noticed as I tightened the spokes there were these little DIMPLES on the rim where I suppose the nipples are sitting. Is this also normal? Should there be dimples?

    -Looking at the LACING PATTERN, I can't help but feel some sort of "emptiness" in the wheel. Originally I wanted to do a 36 spoke/4-cross patterned wheel to make it beefy [anyone have any pictures of such a setup? I'd like to see it pls =)] and I am under the impression that if I did this, I would have a superfluously strong, durable wheel. Plus, one of my sources while building said that 4X is usually used on large flange hubs so...

    I used these three articles/published works to help me:
    - Sheldon Brown's wheelbuilding article
    - Some guy named MikeT on some other forum
    - Gerd Schraner's "The Art Of Wheelbuilding"

    annnd just a few more pictures:
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2480/...9c668da49b.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2642/...468feaa6_b.jpg


    Anyways, that was my whole deal, just wanted to share. Thanks for reading!

  2. #2
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Camp Hill, PA
    My Bikes
    Too many to list here check my signature.
    Posts
    20,683
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Velocity wheels only have a following because they are fairl inexpensive and come in lots of cool colors and designs. IMHO Mavic is the the standard in regular type wheels. all rims are joined in some fashion and that does not look unusual. in recent years rather than a insert of some sort splice to connect the ends most manufactures have gone to welding then machining the sidewalls

    I have never seen a 4x with a HF hub, and I would think the spokes might travel too far across the flange for any benifit. also a 4 cross was generally used for "loaded Touring" to create a stronger but softer wheel. what is wrong with the lacing?
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '09 Motobecane SS, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  3. #3
    Unintentional Troll Scrotze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles (under a bridge)
    My Bikes
    Converted Bianchi Piaggio
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks for that! In fact, I've been debating on whether or not to build my front wheel with Mavic, you're sort of re-affirming my decision.
    Nothing is wrong with the lacing, I just felt that 4x would be stronger than 3x that's all. Also because I deviated from my original plan, which was 4x and 36 holes.

  4. #4
    Old fart JohnDThompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Appleton WI
    My Bikes
    Several, mostly not name brands.
    Posts
    13,083
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotze View Post
    Some comments I have:
    -Velocity's stuff seems to be (or has been) "the standard" of rims in terms of strength and durability (Now I know I'm wrong, I only say this because Velocity is on the majority of bikes around my area) but I gotta say I was a bit disappointed to see the SPOT WHERE THE RIM WAS JOINED (the term escapes me at the moment).
    "Joint"

    For an anal-retentive person this is not a pretty sight, but I'm only semi-A-R. My real concern is the strength of the rim at this particular spot. Is that bad? Should I be worried? Is that bad?.
    No; it's the spokes that hold it together, not the joint. Old-school rims just had a plug press-fitted into the joint. You could pull this out and build the wheel without it and it would hold up just fine.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4,143
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The new and improved welded rims still have the insert in them. The manufacturers sell hype and the welded rim and hard anodizing are both an example of fixing something that ain't broke.
    The rim is being pulled by, in your cas, 32 spokes that are tensioned to at least 100k. That translates to 3200 pounds pulling the rim together.

  6. #6
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    West Village, New York City
    My Bikes
    too many
    Posts
    20,695
    Mentioned
    111 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    I have never seen a 4x with a HF hub, and I would think the spokes might travel too far across the flange for any benifit. also a 4 cross was generally used for "loaded Touring" to create a stronger but softer wheel. what is wrong with the lacing?
    I've seen plenty of 4x wheels with large flange hubs. Nothing wrong with that.

    There is no difference in ride or durability between 3x and 4x wheels.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  7. #7
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    other Vancouver
    Posts
    6,956
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    Velocity wheels only have a following because they are fairl inexpensive and come in lots of cool colors and designs. IMHO Mavic is the the standard in regular type wheels. all rims are joined in some fashion and that does not look unusual. in recent years rather than a insert of some sort splice to connect the ends most manufactures have gone to welding then machining the sidewalls

    I have never seen a 4x with a HF hub, and I would think the spokes might travel too far across the flange for any benifit. also a 4 cross was generally used for "loaded Touring" to create a stronger but softer wheel. what is wrong with the lacing?
    Ditto on the relative quality of Mavic & Velocity rims. I really wish Mavic would bring back the MA-2 rims, but apparently VeloOrange is doing a repop: http://www.velo-orange.com/vopari.html

    We used to lace all of the high-flange hubs 4-cross. That sometimes causes a problem replacing broken spokes if the opposing spoke crossed over the head of the broken one. As Tom says, there's no objective evidence of a difference between 3x and 4x.

    A correctly built and tensioned wheel, no matter what "cross", will not flex to a significant degree. Any flexing of the wheel will be obscured by wiggling tires and handlebars.
    Jeff Wills

    All my bikes.

  8. #8
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
    A correctly built and tensioned wheel, no matter what "cross", will not flex to a significant degree. Any flexing of the wheel will be obscured by wiggling tires and handlebars.
    This is not correct.

    Any racer can tell you this. Even radial lacing between bladed and straight gauge round spokes provide a noticeable difference when cornering. You can optimize a wheel for it's intended function with the type of lacing e.g aero/stiffness/druability/mix of everything etc.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  9. #9
    Unintentional Troll Scrotze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles (under a bridge)
    My Bikes
    Converted Bianchi Piaggio
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What constitutes a durable lacing pattern?

  10. #10
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotze View Post
    What constitutes a durable lacing pattern?
    3x vs radial for example. For heavier riders. I can ride a 14 spoke front wheel 16 spoke rear without hesitation because I weigh nothing. Put that same wheelset on a rider that weighs 190lbs and you're asking for trouble.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  11. #11
    Great State of Varmint Panthers007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Dante's Third Ring
    Posts
    7,481
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    On a 32 or 36 spoked wheel, you can't go wrong with a 3X-laced pattern. Very durable and, if properly built, unlikely to need much, if any, truing.
    How do you keep an idiot in suspense?

  12. #12
    Unintentional Troll Scrotze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles (under a bridge)
    My Bikes
    Converted Bianchi Piaggio
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So what's the magic/mystery behind radial lacing? I've read there's no real advantage. Sheldon says it's aesthetics. Originally I wanted to build my front wheel this way, now, I'm debating whether or not I should do it.

  13. #13
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotze View Post
    So what's the magic/mystery behind radial lacing? I've read there's no real advantage. Sheldon says it's aesthetics. Originally I wanted to build my front wheel this way, now, I'm debating whether or not I should do it.
    The magic is that you need much stronger everything to do radial lacing. It's supposedly stiffer. Most shimano hubs are not rated for radial lacing, for example. DT makes hubs that are especially designed for radial lacing.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  14. #14
    Unintentional Troll Scrotze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles (under a bridge)
    My Bikes
    Converted Bianchi Piaggio
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    The magic is that you need much stronger everything to do radial lacing. It's supposedly stiffer. Most shimano hubs are not rated for radial lacing, for example. DT makes hubs that are especially designed for radial lacing.
    Sorry, but I can't seem to wrap my mind around that term. I've seen it being used many times on here. What exactly does "stiffer" mean?

  15. #15
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotze View Post
    Sorry, but I can't seem to wrap my mind around that term. I've seen it being used many times on here. What exactly does "stiffer" mean?
    When you corner, your front wheel doesn't feel like a wet noodles, for example.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  16. #16
    Unintentional Troll Scrotze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles (under a bridge)
    My Bikes
    Converted Bianchi Piaggio
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do people like that feeling?

  17. #17
    AEO
    AEO is offline
    Senior Member AEO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
    My Bikes
    Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
    Posts
    12,255
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotze View Post
    Do people like that feeling?
    rider preference.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  18. #18
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotze View Post
    Do people like that feeling?
    If you've ever raced your bike you'll appreciate a stiff feeling front wheel in a crit for example.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  19. #19
    Unintentional Troll Scrotze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles (under a bridge)
    My Bikes
    Converted Bianchi Piaggio
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    If you've ever raced your bike you'll appreciate a stiff feeling front wheel in a crit for example.
    I meant the wet noodle feeling, but thanks for clearing that up!

  20. #20
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    My Bikes
    Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback
    Posts
    22,457
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    I have never seen a 4x with a HF hub, and I would think the spokes might travel too far across the flange for any benifit. also a 4 cross was generally used for "loaded Touring" to create a stronger but softer wheel. what is wrong with the lacing?
    Take a look at about half of the track sprinter wheels from the 70's and 80's. Many of them are 36 spoke 4 cross wheels, sometimes even tied and soldered.
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  21. #21
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    West Village, New York City
    My Bikes
    too many
    Posts
    20,695
    Mentioned
    111 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    The practice of tying and soldering started to prevent spokes from flying or protruding when they broke. Then the rumor spread that said that it makes the wheel stronger or stiffer, and people believed it. Now people believe this as the primary reason, when it isn't true at all.

    I don't think radially spoked wheels have ever been proven to have any advantages, and we already know of many disadvantages. I advise against them.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  22. #22
    AEO
    AEO is offline
    Senior Member AEO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
    My Bikes
    Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
    Posts
    12,255
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    spokes, hubs and rims are constructed better these days.

    no absolute need for T&S or 4x-36h anymore.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  23. #23
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    My Bikes
    Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback
    Posts
    22,457
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    The practice of tying and soldering started to prevent spokes from flying or protruding when they broke. Then the rumor spread that said that it makes the wheel stronger or stiffer, and people believed it. Now people believe this as the primary reason, when it isn't true at all.
    Correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    I don't think radially spoked wheels have ever been proven to have any advantages, and we already know of many disadvantages. I advise against them.
    What are the disadvantages for a front wheel application?
    It does save weight... about 5g per wheel


    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    spokes, hubs and rims are constructed better these days.

    no absolute need for T&S or 4x-36h anymore.
    Agreed.
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  24. #24
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    West Village, New York City
    My Bikes
    too many
    Posts
    20,695
    Mentioned
    111 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
    What are the disadvantages for a front wheel application?
    It does save weight... about 5g per wheel
    As mentioned above, you need stronger components. That's because things tend to break, such as hub flanges. What's the point, if there's no discernible gain?
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •