jccaclimber

Here's one (of many) documented examples of a no name bottom bracket when a name brand (FSA) one was advertised:
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/440064-chin-haur-strikes-again-injuries.html
I remember there were several that year. It isn't stuff that you see on the outside. It's always stuff on the inside. The people I was doing repairs for weren't well versed in bicycle mechanics, and honestly thought they were getting the same thing from Bikes Direct as they were with the local shop. The average consumer doesn't look at their bottom bracket, inside their cable housing, etc. With many people this is their first road bike and when the shifting sucks they just assume all bikes are like that. They don't notice the grinding bottom bracket and hubs because they never check them.

It's sort of like a comparison a friend of mine did with two 5 gallon buckets. One he bought at Ace Hardware, the other from WalMart. If you put 5 gallons in the Ace bucket, it had a couple inches left so that you wouldn't spill whatever you put in it. If you put 5 gallons on the WallyWorld bucket, it was too full to get the lid on without spilling the liquid. Technically they were both as advertised 5 gallon buckets, but in actual use the WalMart bucket was a 4.5 gallon bucket.

jccaclimber

No, that just means everyone is being deceptive. It's common in lower end stuff, but goes away with more reputable builders.

Right, but really there are only a couple dozen topics, and a lot of people who didn't us the search button.

Rogue Leader

Just wanted to point out regarding Kestrel again, the Kestrels that BD sells are real Kestrels, they are different than the other bikes BD sells. BD is just a reseller of Kestrel and does not have those bikes manufactured for them specifically.

njkayaker

No.

https://www.reynoldstechnology.biz/do...frameparts.pdf

https://www.bikeradar.com/gallery/art...news%2Farticle

mconlonx

Mea culpa for tossing Kestrel in with the others. I assumed, and it got me where it usually does.

Point of all this was just reporting. I'd been interested since starting as a mechanic to see what state a geared bike from BD might look like, coming into the shop from Jo(sephin)e Public.

I'm guessing this was pretty typical.

I didn't get into the headset, BB, or hubs, beyond checking for play, so I can't comment on those components.

I referenced pricing of the Big Name Brand bike (Trek 1.2) most similar to the Wellington 3.0, not the loss leader (1.1 @ $599) which comes with an aluminum fork.

Proper assembly is something any home mechanic with a modicum of mechanics skills could do, it would just take a lot longer than a shop mechanic and might not be up to snuff. Then again, maybe you'd do things more correct, depending on your aptitude and the skill level of a local mechanic.

Get a BD bike if you actually know what you're doing, or are prepared to learn, probably by spending a weekend with the bike, tools, and something like the Park Big Blue Book. It would be a great way to learn if you want to get into it. If you really don't want to get involved with your bike on that level, or you don't trust your mechanic skills, call your LBS to find out what the cost for assembling a bike from a box will be, and figure that in with the purchase cost before you pull the trigger. Completely forget about it if you have no patience--setting up a bike right the first time will take bucketloads.

I've never dealt with warranty issues on a BD bike, but having a dealer on your side to argue with the manufacturer can be useful and something you don't get with a BD bike--essentially, if you do have an issue, you have to follow it up... like anyone at a shop would with their brand, before you even see it.

BD has its place, but for non-mechanics expecting a simple bolt-together, "some assembly required," situation, well they may want to rethink that notion. Getting a BD bike and then heading down to the local co-op might be a great way to do it.

njkayaker

There was no problem with your original post (or the last one). It was quite reasonable!

danarnold

I appreciate jccaclimber's warning though. The current Kestrel RT800 BD sells is laid out pretty well in terms of what they are selling. All Dura Ace 7900, including BB. Stem, seat post, bars all laid out with specific closeup photos. I guess they could substitute cheap bar tape and cables, but it looks like, at least with the Kestrel, they'd have a hard time cutting corners. Makes sense to inspect carefully in any event.

There's a big gray market out there and sometimes it isn't just the final consumer who gets fooled.

dwr1961

Not every shop mechanic is "up to snuff" either. I've had very mixed results over the years - Which is partly why I do all my own maintenance and repair. I've paid for enough crappy, indifferent work done by inexperienced, poorly-paid kids that I've been pretty much driven away from using LBS's.

I'm NOT a great mechanic, but I can read a manual, consult a website (like this one), and work as carefully as the next guy. It may take me twice as long, but the price is certainly right. Over the years I've built up quite a collection of tools (on an "as needed" basis) and can confidently tear a bike down and build it back up -correctly.

If I was in the market for a new bike I wouldn't hesitate to get a BD bike. But if I were a "newbie," I agree that it might not be the best move unless I was going to have a shop build and adjust it. Even then it might be a crapshoot given some LBS's propensity to screw things up.

Not all bikes are created equal - and not all bike shops, either.

njkayaker

Yes, a LBS isn't a magical place. There are good ones and bad ones.

danarnold

+1 on that. I've never thought of myself as a mechanic. I have no natural aptitude for it and used to dread the idea of it, but circumstances sometimes leave you no choice. I've had to install a water pump in a 1970 Chevy, which included having to tap some holes for new bolts (don't want to do that again).

When I first had a BMW oilhead's valves adjusted at a non BMW shop, the next time, when I did it myself, I noticed they'd but a gasket in wrong.

Over the years, you learn there's no mystery to most of it, and you acquire the necessary tools and learn that most of it simply deals with the art of fasteners and how to get to them.

One of the main things is that we often do some procedure once a year, where the shop guys do it every day, so they are much quicker. We have to take our time and figure it out, but tend to be more precise.

I bought my current bike from a Specialized dealer who seemed meticulous about setting it up for me. But when I got it home and checked the hubs, I realized the cones were too tight. I could feel the bearings grumble as the wheel spun. Not rocket science, but I can read a manual, Zinn's, and ask questions on the internet.

There are a lot of things on a bike that are as simple as an oil change and it's nice to do it yourself so you know it's done right. Some people don't even fix their own flats.

keesue

I was a bit hestitant to post this thread given the polarized view of buying bikes on the internet in general, buying from BD in particular, the ultimate cost in doing so and the criticisms being leveled about bike 'mechanicsmanship'. However, I know that others look to this forum as I do for information so here is my input.

I just ordered a BD Dawes SST which is due to arrive today. It is my first purchase of a bike over the internet. I wanted an inexpensive SS with bullhorns for the express purpose of replacing my commute-to-the-athletic-club Puch; and, to make the ride a bit more spirited. I researched the bikes in my local LBS but chose the Dawes based on price and value for its intended purpose. The Puch will now become the 'beer bike' as befits its heritage.

I am under no illusion, at this price point, that the bike will only meet the requirements for which I bought it: an inexpensive bike I can lockup outside of the athletic club. In fact, I would not want it to be any more expensive. I factored in the cost of a frame and building a bike myself but I wanted a cheap bike. The lower cost parts and adjusting it myself to make it road-worthy was a winner. That said, my expectation is that the frame will be acceptable as it is made by a reputable factory that produces several frames for so-called 'name brand' bikes. All the reviews I have read have been favorable with the exception of a factory/shipping damaged fork issue which was ultimately addressed. I will keep the bars, the brakes and will upgrade the pads. I will replace the stem, if necessary for fit, from my parts bin. I will keep the saddle as I don't expect to ride this one any distance and it will be sitting in a bike rack. I will true the wheels as required.

For those who cannot handle these items, as advised by BD, a trip to the bike shop is in order. Its a win-win in that the LBS works on bikes they don't sell and repair work is a significant part of their revenue. Moreover, I think it is fair to say that anyone ordering a bike online in so-called 'bike shop ready condition' has considered the cost of setting it up in their purchase decision if they or a friend cannot do so themselves. Those that don't will end up paying anyway so it is really a moot point.

I appreciate the argument of LBS pride in assembly, fit and adjustments. I purchased all my bikes from my LBS for these reasons. For those who need that service, it is worth it. For those who purchase bikes based on the simple criteria of price, after all is said, it is their money. I chose this option to fit my requirements as stated above. I must also add that not all the work performed at the LBS was up to scratch. They did however, make the necessary corrections.

The latin term Caveat Emptor summarizes the entire argument. I would advise anyone making a purchase to make sure they understand the requirements and the ultimate cost involved to pay for setup and ugrades if they are not able to handle these themselves. I do think most people are saavy enough to have considered this.

Panthers007

One also needs to factor in the cost of tune-ups - which will me needed well within the first month or so after it's built - as your new bike has no warranty that covers such. And if anything goes wrong or breaks - you'll have to pay for that, too. Unless you think little Chinese bike-mechanics will pop through your computer-screen to fix your bike.

You are on your own. Once again: Not a problem if you are a skilled bike-mechanic with all the needed tools. Otherwise.....*

jccaclimber

I'm not referring to that, I'm referring to using hi-ten type steel with an 853 main triangle.

mzeffex 

^ TOP tube shifters?

Rogue Leader

There is a warranty, you are not completely SOL if it breaks. That said its not as simple as bring it back to the bike shop and they fix it. More than likely you will be replacing parts yourself, or packing the whole thing back up and mailing it back. Depending on the part they just send it to you (My skewers were damaged in shipping, they sent me 2 new ones free...)

mtnbke

Mongoose, GT, and Schwinn were purchased by Dorel. To varying degrees all three brands have been used by Dorel to push 'Wal-Mart' quality bikes taking advantage of the nameplate. Dorel just purchased Cannondale. Production of Cannondales are going to Taiwan (like every other bicycle manufacturer).

Its funny how the Dorel acquisition of Cannondale has had such a negative reaction in the cycling community. Many Cannondale dealers dropped the brand altogether. However, Dorel has made some changes recently and have completely refocused the GT brand, and intend to keep the Cannondale brand as a premium brand as well.

Cannondale is still currently operating out of Pennsylvania. Most of the high end bikes are still being manufactured in Pennsylvania (the tandems certainly are), until the acquisition is complete.

Bikes Direct bought up dead nameplates and started branding bikes with the names of defunct companies. You can't compare the Cannondale acquisition, and moving the rest of production to Taiwan to Bikes Direct slapping a nameplate of a long dead company. Cannondale, despite Joe Montgomery's best corrupt efforts, never died. Its always been a vibrant company that has been exceptionally innovative (BB30 bottom bracket, Lefty suspension, HeadShok suspension, aluminum frames, etc.).

Its funny that so many people react so viscerally to Cannondale moving production to Taiwan. When Specialized moved almost 100% of their production to Taiwan, and did this nearly fifteen years ago, no one batted an eye. In fact Specialized found themselves soon competing with the factory that was making their bikes, and the Giant brand emerged. It was funny that for several model years you could buy identical bikes (branded Specialized or Giant) with the same components, and made in the same factory.

How many Specialized dealers dropped the brand when they moved production to Taiwan? How many bike shops refused to sell Campagnolo when they started making their components in China and Taiwan?

As for whether a relationship with a local bike shop is worth $250...

I have a different take on this, than most. Since the advent of internet sales the average local bike shop has really taken a turn for the worse. Many local shops look to every transaction as the last opportunity to get as much out of the customer as they can.

Most local bike shops due a horrid job of fitting customers to bikes, don't even bother swapping on an Ergostem (or even own one) to properly fit the bike, and sell many bikes that hang on the wall because they aren't properly fit. The owners can't ride the bikes without their hands, back, and neck hurting.

My perspective on the local bike shop is different. I can name two local bike shops that I would recommend, and easily thirty in five states that I would encourage everyone to avoid (including some of the most well known shops around).

Sadly, the average bike shop employs wrenches that no very little about anything non-Shimanoculture or older than current product.

I think the Local Bike Shop is the biggest part of the problem. Recently I found a new LBS that is a complete departure from the norm of selling people bikes that don't fit, but are in stock. They've sold around ten bikes off the floor in ten years. Everything else is a custom. Where they really thrive is being a shop, working on bikes. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a shop and while I'm talking to the wrench I realize that the kid knows absolutely nothing about bikes. I'm a hack of a wrench, but I know enough to realize when someone completely just doesn't have the training or knowledge.

So no, I don't think the $250 is worth it to establish a relationship with a local bike shop. However, if you can find that one shop in a hundred that really knows what they are doing, is staffed by people that aren't bitter from making $10 an hour working on multi-thousand dollar bikes all day, and isn't trying to extract every last penny on every visit to the store, well then I'd say that relationship is definitely worth it.

However, I'd also tell a prospective buyer that if the shop doesn't have a sizer cycle and an Ergostem to walk out in the first place...

I still don't get why someone would want to buy a Motobecane price point bike and such when they can buy an epic bike off craigslist for the same price. You can get a high end Klein, Cannondale, etc. for the price of the junk they are selling now. Don't even get me started on having to be dependent on the shop with finicky 9/10 speed versus bombproof reliable 8 speed stuff.

However much I'd never buy a Motobecane Bikes Direct bike I certainly would buy one if I needed a complete build, and I'd use something classic and epic to build it up on.

I'm telling you, bike shops never used to be used car salesmen or a creepy auto mechanic, but for whatever reason they've crossed those lines recently.

For every good shop out there, there are multiples of bad ones.

mtnbke

Oh let me make a list of all the problems I've had with high end bikes purchased at renowned Local Bike Shops that didn't stand behind the bikes, follow through on warranty issues, and in general were not interested in a relationship after having sold the bike...

I'm talking tandems, Kleins, Cannondales, custom wheels that failed within five miles.

I think that once you find a great shop they've got your loyalty for life, in terms of wrenching on your bikes. However, the shop you buy your bike at is nothing more than a channel through which to purchase it.

Sixty Fiver

Skilled bike mechanics are a rare commodity and no...it isn't rocket science.

But there is a big difference between someone who is mechanically inclined and someone who has decades of experience, a big difference between the hobbyist and the person who has decided to make this their vocation in life.

Rogue Leader

Absolutely, its like that in auto mechanics as well (and practically any other skill/trade). Doesn't mean the mechanically inclined person cant do it, but the real mechanic can do it faster and probably better.

HeyitsDave

I'm an auto mechanic and I bought a Motobecane Fantom Trail.

LarDasse74

I read through that thread and it actually goes on to say the BikesDirect spec did not list a manufacturer for the bottom bracket... and it is sort of hard to tell, but the part that broke seems to have been the FSA spindle and not the Dy Yung (or whatever) bottom bracket.

dwr1961

Sadly, in my experience, this is the Gospel truth...

The majority of bike shops don't make enough money to hire decent help - and many of them have staff that are ignorant, condescending and/or just plain bald-faced liars... I wish that weren't true, and there certainly are shining exceptions - but a novice cyclist is not going to know the difference until it's too late. Then they've got a bad taste in their mouth that damages their cycling experience. There are simply a lot of shops that are terrible ambassadors for the cycling lifestyle.

If the growth of Internet retailers thins the herd of bad/weak shops, It's a good thing. However, I suspect that the good get killed off as often as the bad. Hopefully the competition between these entities will eventually make both better.

Right now my family of five has eight bikes. Five were bought at brick-and-mortar shops, two were Internet purchases, and one was built up from parts purchased online. The last three were cyberspace transactions, and it's likely that whatever comes next will be, too...

Yes, there are good shops; they're just few and far between. If you live around Boise, ID or are passing through, go to Idaho Mountain Touring on 13th and Main. They are great. I thought I'd give them a plug since I've bad-mouthed most of their brethren.

keesue

Excellent points. I would not consider nor recommend buying a more expensive bike this way for those very reasons with the exception of those who can wrench. For them, a more expensive purchase is less risky. BD does warranty parts but that requires shipping. Not an issue for me as I don't intend to make this bike do anything more than carry me to the gym and back. For that, it appears to be solid enough.

The bike arrived undamaged. I inspected the box and the bike was well packed. I put it together, torqued the driveline, adjusted the brakes, trued up the wheels and took it out for a spin. I put it back on the stand, re-trued the wheels, checked the torque on everything then back out once more for a good hard spin. All is well. It rides straight and true.

My impressions of the bike are that the frame is done well, the welds are done right, the parts are cheap but functional and it is solid cut above junk. I think it is a good value for the price and will serve its purpose.

One thing: I did have to let the chinese air out of the tires and fill it with good USA grade air but that is my only nit.

vredstein

Good post. Many shops are only interested in the "big sale". If you show no interest in purchasing a new bike, you're wasting their time. These shops value the salesman who can sell the wrong bike to the wrong customer and see little need for the mechanic who can restore a person's current bike. They're at odds.
"Down tube shifting? Sturmey Archer? Not worth the labor time. What you need is a new Roubaix!"
In my last shop interview, the owner characterized the fitting process as a "dog and pony show". I was given a couple Specialized BG flip charts and token plumb bob and sent out there. Now I don't believe all customers need a full-on, multi-session computer read out. Quality experience and an informed eye can get most people close, close enough so they won't be returning the bike due to obvious fit issues. But the attitude did not encourage listening to the customer. And when the customer does have issues beyond a saddle rail shift or a cm of seatpost, they've hit the shop's knowledge ceiling.
I think the economic climate that coincided with the popularity boom of mountain bikes and Lance has given birth to a new type of shop owner. The type of person who is able to work the system to their advantage. They've developed this skill as a necessity, since they don't possess the basic attachment to the sport nor the ability to stay connected with the needs of cyclists. They may become a fan along the way, but it will always be secondary to the quest for the "big sale".

keesue

If I may, I would like to concur with this and the post above. I have found a lot of LBS interest is in the sale. In my travels, I always try to visit shops to check out the goods. I recognize their requirement to 'sell bikes', but I must admit I feel like I'm being 'hustled'. MY LBS is different and hence my loyalty to them. The key is to find one that will honor the relationship and take good care of you. I have through research, gained enough knowledge to be self sufficient but I have maintained my relationship with them. I always urge new or returning cyclists to find a good shop or someone who can guide them through the maze of cycling. It can be very expensive.

Oh, and....that Dawes is a blast!!! (done now).