Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-04-10, 09:45 PM   #1
chico1st
30mi/day commuter
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
front derailer with IGH

is it possible to use a front deraileur with an IGH? If you had 2-3 chain rings up front the chain angles very little but you use those thick single speed chains with an IGH can it handle this amount of angle? or is that a bad idea?
chico1st is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-10, 09:55 PM   #2
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chico1st View Post
is it possible to use a front deraileur with an IGH? If you had 2-3 chain rings up front the chain angles very little but you use those thick single speed chains with an IGH can it handle this amount of angle? or is that a bad idea?
2 will probably be max.

You'll need some sort of chain tensioner/derailleur to take up the slack as you shift through the gears. I'm not sure if you can make the chainline work or not. You will most definitley not be able to use 1/8 chain. At any rate, a 3/32 chain will handle crosschaining better than a 1/8. It was designed to.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-10, 10:13 PM   #3
mickey85
perpetually frazzled
 
mickey85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Linton, IN
Bikes: 1977 Bridgestone Kabuki Super Speed; 1979 Raleigh Professional; 1983 Raleigh Rapide mixte; 1974 Peugeot UO-8; 1993 Univega Activa Trail; 1972 Raleigh Sports; 1967 Phillips; 1981 Schwinn World Tourist; 1976 Schwinn LeTour mixte; 1964 Western Flyer
Posts: 2,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you got a half-step setup (I've got one that's 52/47 for instance), you could probably get away with just using super long dropouts. Might not be the safest thing...Once you go with a tensioner or a derailer that has been fixed in place, you kinda lose most of the benefits of going with an IGH - namely nothing to get gunked up and a clean chain line.
mickey85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-10, 10:34 PM   #4
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey85 View Post
If you got a half-step setup (I've got one that's 52/47 for instance), you could probably get away with just using super long dropouts. Might not be the safest thing...Once you go with a tensioner or a derailer that has been fixed in place, you kinda lose most of the benefits of going with an IGH - namely nothing to get gunked up and a clean chain line.
That won't work anyways. The chain tension will be ridiculously loose in one combo. Enough to drop chains.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-10, 11:06 PM   #5
Panthers007
Great State of Varmint
 
Panthers007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dante's Third Ring
Bikes:
Posts: 7,479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It would be interesting to design an adjunct to an IGH that can also pick up the chain-slack. But I don't see it rolling down the street for awhile. Thanks for the concept.

Last edited by Panthers007; 01-05-10 at 12:04 AM. Reason: need new kb
Panthers007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 06:56 AM   #6
Mr IGH
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 3,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Other folks have done it. The issue is that if you choose an Nexus/Alfine, the gear steps are not consistant (the difference between 1-2 gear is much less than the difference between 5-6 gear). The set-up won't be a half-step, there will be lots of overlap. All you'll do is extend the range 2-3 more gears. If you choose an SRAM im9 hub, the steps are consistant and you can get a wider range with less overlap. No issues on the chainslack, just use a rear dearaillieur...Which kinda defeats the purpose of an IGH....
Mr IGH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 09:03 AM   #7
mconlonx 
Nobody
 
mconlonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 7,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Shimano makes a double-pulley Alfine chain tensioner for applications with front shifting and there are other tensioner designs out there that would work. A double would make sense, but check with hub mfg regarding minimum ratio before planning on a triple chainring setup--a super-small chainring might overtorque an IGH hub.
__________________
I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.
mconlonx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 09:17 AM   #8
ryanwood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Eastern Iowa
Bikes: surly cross check
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
you should try an internal geared crank, I am not terribly familiar with them but I have seen them on a few mountain bikes so I know they exist
ryanwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 09:37 AM   #9
hartsu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Finland
Bikes:
Posts: 105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had double setup last year.
Shimano Tiagra Compact 50-34 and Shimano tensioner, works fine .
hartsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 09:44 AM   #10
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,357
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Cyclo used to make a 3-speed cluster and derailleur for use on Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hubs to give 9 speeds in total. The system used 1/8" chain so I suspect you could run 3 chainrings and a front derailleur with 1/8" chain as well. But you would need some kind of chain tensioner on the back.
JohnDThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 09:47 AM   #11
griftereck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: angus scotland
Bikes: Grifter BSA 20
Posts: 600
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I built a few bikes that had igh and mechs.

Lil Blue bike was a kids MTB that I fitted 20" 3 speed Sturmey Archer wheels too. I fitted an old Shimano 3 speed 18t cog to it. As these are pressed steel and can use a narrow chain.
But needed a smaller cog. I had racer 42/52 cranks on it. Could spin out the gears too easily.



Last edited by griftereck; 01-05-10 at 09:54 AM.
griftereck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 10:36 AM   #12
Bianchigirll 
Bianchi Goddess
 
Bianchigirll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Camp Hill, PA
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Posts: 22,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
I do not have alot of miles on my IGH, but it seems that a triple is a bit overkill as the 28T on mine is usless. atleast here in rather flat So Jersey. I did switch toa sort of halfster with 42/58. I had the triple carnks and wanted to use it plus the vertical dropouts meant I needed a tensioner anyway
__________________
Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '09 Motobecane SOLD, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape
Bianchigirll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 03:23 PM   #13
tatfiend 
Gear Hub fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Reno, NV
Bikes: Civia Hyland Rohloff, Swobo Dixon, Colnago, Univega
Posts: 2,830
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
LOTS of ways to go in order to extend the overall gear range of an IGH from using the SRAM Dual Drive to multiple front chain rings with a chain tensioner or rear derailleur adjusted to act strictly as a chain tensioner. Using thin Shimano or SRAM dished IGH rear cogs allows fitting of two cogs to most Sturmey Archer hubs. With careful choice of cog sizes and chain length the chain tension adjustment of most horizontal dropouts should be enough to allow proper chain tensioning with the chain on either sprocket. No changing of chain position possible while riding but a quick stop allows readjusting to the range wanted.

Almost all have the disadvantage of losing the simplicity of appearance and single chainline that the IGH with single sprockets front and rear provide. They also make fitting a chain guard much more difficult. The one exception is the Schlumpf dual drive front crankset or something similar. Expensive solution though. I personally favor choosing a IGH that provides the overall gear range needed to start with. If you need a wide range the Rohloff has a 526% range, the NuVinci has a 350% overall range and the SRAM iM9 has a 340% range.

As already mentioned too, trying to fit too low an input ratio for the hub via fitting a too small inner chainring risks over torquing the IGH unit which risks possible failure. Rohloff, NuVinci and SRAM all list recommended minimum input ratios for their hubs and Sturmey Archer used to prior to the Sunrace take over.
__________________
Gear Hubs Owned: Rohloff disc brake, SRAM iM9 disc brake, SRAM P5 freewheel, Sachs Torpedo 3 speed freewheel, NuVinci CVT, Shimano Alfine SG S-501, Sturmey Archer S5-2 Alloy. Other: 83 Colnago Super Record, Univega Via De Oro

Visit and join the Yahoo Geared Hub Bikes group for support and links.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared_hub_bikes/
tatfiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-10, 08:01 PM   #14
daredevil
cyclepath
 
daredevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: "The Last Best Place"
Bikes: 2005 Trek Pilot 5.0, 2001 Specialized Sirrus Pro, Kona Lava Dome, Raleigh hardtail converted to commuter, 87 Takara steel road bike, 2008 Trek Soho
Posts: 3,550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I like the looks of this...
http://jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/s...ter4_spec.html
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
daredevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-10, 07:08 AM   #15
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts unknown
Bikes:
Posts: 4,676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
LOL! Here's how to half-step a Shimano 8:

It can't be done with two chainwheels --- but it can with three.

Example: let's use - arbitrarily - a 700x32 and a 23T cog. Our three chainwheels could then be a 42T, 45T and 47T.

Gear progression would be:
1st ratio, 42/23 = 26"
1st ratio, 47/23 = 29"
2nd ratio, 42/23 = 32"
2nd ratio, 45/23 = 34"
3rd ratio, 42/23 = 37"
3rd ratio, 45/23 = 39.5"
4th ratio, 42/23 = 42"
4th ratio, 45/23 = 45"
5th ratio, 42/23 = 49"
5th ratio, 47/23 = 55"
6th ratio, 42/23 = 60"
6th ratio, 45/23 = 64.5"
7th ratio, 42/23 = 70"
7th ratio, 45/23 = 75"
8th ratio, 42/23 = 79"
8th ratio, 45/23 = 85"

tcs
tcs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-10, 08:53 AM   #16
daredevil
cyclepath
 
daredevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: "The Last Best Place"
Bikes: 2005 Trek Pilot 5.0, 2001 Specialized Sirrus Pro, Kona Lava Dome, Raleigh hardtail converted to commuter, 87 Takara steel road bike, 2008 Trek Soho
Posts: 3,550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
^^^is that describing anything similar to that two ringed Jamis mentioned in post #14?
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
daredevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-10, 10:52 AM   #17
mconlonx 
Nobody
 
mconlonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 7,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Jamis, assume 18t rear sprocket. 700x32 tires. 48/34 crank.

26.9 34/18 1st
32.8 34/18 2nd
37.9 48/18 1st
38.1 34/18 3rd
43.4 34/18 4th
46.4 48/18 2nd
51.0 34/18 5th
53.9 48/18 3rd
61.3 48/18 4th
62.4 34/18 6th
72.0 48/18 5th
72.4 34/18 7th
82.4 34/18 8th
88.1 48/18 6th
102.2 48/18 7th
116.3 48/18 8th

Rather than a half step, there are a couple ratios on there, right in the meat of where I'm usually at, that are pretty close together. Currently, I'm running 44/18 on a nexus hub, which is just about perfect for my slightly hilly commute--if I lived in real hill country or mountains, I'd be looking for a lower gear. As it is, I'm thinking of a double chainring setup, but it would be more like 48/38 or some thing that would stagger the middle of the range a bit more evenly. Even so, I think I'd rarely be shifting the front, considering it more a hi/lo range, set it and forget it kinda thing, rather than something to be used for hitting half steps along the regular range.
__________________
I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.
mconlonx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-10, 02:03 PM   #18
LarDasse74
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Grid Reference, SK
Bikes: I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
Posts: 3,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A couple of months ago I retrofitted an Alfine hub to my touring bike and used the Alfine chain tensioner... the Shimano instructions actually give guidelines for running multiple chainrings and how to size the chain, etc.

Also, the Alfine chain tensioner did not work well with the 1/8" chain - the chain was lightly rubbing on the sides of the tensioner, and I lost the option of using the (still installed) 28 and 46 tooth rings. I have run the bike several times with the other rings, but I just swap it over by hand as I removed the front derailleur and shifter when I installed the Alfine hub.
LarDasse74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-10, 02:39 PM   #19
Mr IGH
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 3,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarDasse74 View Post
... the Alfine chain tensioner did not work well with the 1/8" chain - the chain was lightly rubbing on the sides of the tensioner....
Why use an 1/8" chain? All the rear cogs are available in 3/32, the tensioner and chainrings are made for 3/32.
Mr IGH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-10, 06:32 AM   #20
LarDasse74
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Grid Reference, SK
Bikes: I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
Posts: 3,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
Why use an 1/8" chain? All the rear cogs are available in 3/32, the tensioner and chainrings are made for 3/32.
I thought I was being clever. I have since installed a 3/32" chain and all is right with the universe.
LarDasse74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:26 PM.