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  1. #1
    Senior Member cthenn's Avatar
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    Craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap!

    OK, this is a follow up from my post yesterday about going from 12x25 to a 11x25 10sp cassette.

    So I took the brand new bike back to the shop, who agreed to swap out my cassette to an 11x25. I just took the rear wheel, and they put it on for me, no problem. I get it home, and put it up on the trainer to check it out. All the gears run smooth...except for the damn 11T. The chain is jumping like crazy, sitting up on the very tops of the cog teeth. It's not trying to jump to the 12, it's just trying to stay on the tops of the teeth. I played with the barrel adjuster, and the limit screw, and I can tell it's not that.

    The only thing I can think of is that the dude at the shop put back the 12T lockring. Which brings me to my question. Is the lockring the same on an 11x25 and 12x25 Ultegra 6700 cassette, or are they different? The lockring appears to be a hair larger in diameter than the bottom of the groove in the 11T cog teeth.

    What else could be the problem? Chain, bike, and cassette are all brand spanking new. ANNOYING!

  2. #2
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    Maybe you need to set the limit screw so the chain can fall into the sprockets. And you probably need to re-center the chain on the other cogs as well. The tolerances on 10 speed are pretty tight.

  3. #3
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    Yep, you're right. Shimano 11 tooth and 12 tooth cassettes come with different lockrings.

  4. #4
    Senior Member cthenn's Avatar
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    Man...this shop is pissing me off. I verified on the Shimano website that yes, there are different lockrings, and they put on the 12T lockring. The size of the lockring is way too big for the 11T, that's why the chain is jumping up, not toward the next gear.

    Thing is I just called the shop and asked, and the guy on the phone insisted the lockrings are the same. Guess I'll have to print out the tech sheets from Shimano and tell him "uh duh".

    I hate bad service.

  5. #5
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    The shop is/are idiots. That is *basic*. If they can screw that up, they'll screw up anything.

    Go elsewhere.


    Personally, I'd cause a confrontation.
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
    Man...this shop is pissing me off. I verified on the Shimano website that yes, there are different lockrings, and they put on the 12T lockring. The size of the lockring is way too big for the 11T, that's why the chain is jumping up, not toward the next gear.

    Thing is I just called the shop and asked, and the guy on the phone insisted the lockrings are the same. Guess I'll have to print out the tech sheets from Shimano and tell him "uh duh".

    I hate bad service.
    Sometimes you just have to vote with your feet. After they straighten this out, I'd avoid these folks. Anyone can make a mistake but this is indicative of a totally non caring attitude.

    BTW it's an interesting semantic paradox- if the mechanic actually gave a crap, you wouldn't have gotten it.
    Last edited by FBinNY; 02-26-10 at 08:41 PM.
    FB
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  7. #7
    Senior Member cthenn's Avatar
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    Problem is, the oh-so awesome "free lifetime adjustments" is through this shop. I can do my fair share of wrenching, but one of the reasons I bought from a local shop (instead of out of state, which is what I did last time I bought a bike to avoid $300 in tax...haha F*** the man!!) was so I could get free service when I felt lazy or couldn't solve some problem. But now I'm kind of afraid, laf.

    Had I known then what I know now...

  8. #8
    Great State of Varmint Panthers007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
    Problem is, the oh-so awesome "free lifetime adjustments" is through this shop.
    Change that to "free lifetime vandalizing" of your bike. As others have suggested - find another shop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cateye View Post
    Only panthers007 is stupid enough to believe that this is a good idea.

  9. #9
    Senior Member TLCFORBIKES's Avatar
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    Free lifetime service is worth every penny. The type of service you have received is typical of lifetime service. Rare is the case that lifetime service is worth anything. Get the lockring situation corrected and never go back - at least never get any work done on your bike.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Yellowbeard's Avatar
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    I did that once (whilst working at a shop). Didn't know the lockrings were different. The other difference was that I actually tested the gears, found the problem and checked with the head mechanic. An ignorant mechanic is one thing (we all start that way) but not testing a system you've worked on is just stupid.
    I'll eat it first.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowbeard View Post
    I did that once (whilst working at a shop). Didn't know the lockrings were different. The other difference was that I actually tested the gears, found the problem and checked with the head mechanic. An ignorant mechanic is one thing (we all start that way) but not testing a system you've worked on is just stupid.
    You're right, there's nothing wrong with not knowing, it's not knowing that you don't know that causes problems, but what's worse is not caring.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member ScottNotBombs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLCFORBIKES View Post
    Free lifetime service is worth every penny. The type of service you have received is typical of lifetime service. Rare is the case that lifetime service is worth anything. Get the lockring situation corrected and never go back - at least never get any work done on your bike.
    Agreed. Craftsman has a lifetime warranty on their sockets, but I've had to go back to the store 3 times in one day for broken sockets (working on cars) so I upgraded to Matco and I haven't owned any craftsman since. Lifetime warranty doesn't mean much..
    I'm just a kid who gets in trouble sometimes

  13. #13
    Senior Member pat5319's Avatar
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    You guys talk as if you've never made a mistake, give the shops a break. People can have bad days, even the best. Shimano probably never told them there was a difference and is probably the only company that uses different lock-rings. I worked in several shops and was always pissed at Shimano for the stupid sneaky sh*t they pulled to make an extra buck to make your buy extra parts to get the part you needed and by my making parts model and year specific. The even left out THE MOST NEEDED gauge in a set, I called to get the one I needed and was told I would have to buy a whole new set to get one gauge. I'll bet there aren't any obvious markings to tell they're different without looking very close, and he's probably put the things on lots of other bikes without issues or yours is the first he's seen. Shimano could have put the wrong ring ring in the box too or someone could have swiped it because they lost theirs-stranger things have happened
    Last edited by pat5319; 02-26-10 at 10:42 PM. Reason: mistake/addition
    Pat5319


  14. #14
    Senior Member TLCFORBIKES's Avatar
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    TLC for Bikes is a shop (www.tlc4bikes.com) and I am the mechanic (and owner). I will admit to any mistake and have made a few in the 38 yrs of wrenching. For years all manufactures (Shimano,Campagnolo,Sram) have used a smaller lockring on a 11t cog vs a 12t cog -- common knowledge. I do give free service in some cases but I will not advertise lifetime free service. Good/Great service is always worth paying for. I do not believe in the payscale that many shops use ($75-$90 per hr. or more). I will charge less but regardless what is charged -- if the service is good/fast/correct then a fee for that service is reasonable.

  15. #15
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    I consider it to be basic knowledge that an 11 tooth cog needs a smaller lockring than a 12 tooth cog and if I had made this mistake in my shop, because it is a pretty easy one to do, I'd fix it.

    Mind you...nothing gets out my shops door until it has been soundly tested both on the stand and on the road... my customers don't mind a little dust on the tyres as they know I really make sure a bike is 110 % before I call it finished.

  16. #16
    Senior Member pat5319's Avatar
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    oops!!!! my apologies for miss-statement on lock-ring sizes, I've been out of the business for for awhile and never use 11t (prefer more gears in the middle)
    Pat5319


  17. #17
    I have senior moments... bikinfool's Avatar
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    I can't imagine taking my bike to a shop to swap a cassette....or is this some deal where they give you some tradein on the old one?
    suum quique
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  18. #18
    cab horn
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    The OP is acting like the shop killed ran over his dog with a pickup truck. It was a mistake, big ****ing whoop. No shop has a 0% error rate on repairs/service.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  19. #19
    cab horn
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF View Post
    The shop is/are idiots. That is *basic*. If they can screw that up, they'll screw up anything.

    Go elsewhere.


    Personally, I'd cause a confrontation.
    You got to be kidding me.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  20. #20
    Member alaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikinfool View Post
    I can't imagine taking my bike to a shop to swap a cassette....
    +1

    A few basic tools are required and this is not rocket science...

  21. #21
    DOS
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    I dont know that I'd give up on the whole shop but I would make sure I avoided that partcular mechanic. In the two LBS I go to, there are guys I want working on my bikes and guys I don't. So make friends with the mechanics you trust.
    My Opinions > My Knowledge

  22. #22
    Senior Member DieselDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    The OP is acting like the shop killed ran over his dog with a pickup truck. It was a mistake, big ****ing whoop. No shop has a 0% error rate on repairs/service.
    I wonder how much BS the OP left out that distracted the mechanic to where the mechanic mixed up the lock rings.

    If the former VP is such a VIP ends up MIA with the VC we'll all be on KP.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    The OP is acting like the shop killed ran over his dog with a pickup truck. It was a mistake, big ****ing whoop. No shop has a 0% error rate on repairs/service.
    I don't think the real problem is in having the wrong lockring installed; that kind of oversight can happen to anyone. The problem was in insisting there is no difference in lockrings. As noted by several posters above, every maker uses a smaller lockring for 11T cogs than for 12T and above cogs and that should indeed be "common knowledge".

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    I don't think the real problem is in having the wrong lockring installed; that kind of oversight can happen to anyone. The problem was in insisting there is no difference in lockrings. As noted by several posters above, every maker uses a smaller lockring for 11T cogs than for 12T and above cogs and that should indeed be "common knowledge".
    + 1

    Plus, the bike should have been tested on the stand, and on the road, so it could be confirmed that the job was done properly. Testing is part of quality control and would have identified there was a problem to the mechanic so that it could be corrected.

    EDIT: Oops, now I see that the OP only brought the wheel in, so no way the bike could have been tested on the stand or on the road.
    Last edited by ARider2; 02-27-10 at 10:56 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARider2 View Post
    + 1

    Plus, the bike should have been tested on the stand, and on the road, so it could be confirmed that the job was done properly. Testing is part of quality control and would have identified there was a problem to the mechanic so that it could be corrected.
    Hillrider said it perfectly, anyone could have made this mistake under the circumstances, the sin was in insisting that they didn't.

    The mechanic might be blamed for not thinking or being distracted, but testing wasn't an option because he only had the wheel.
    FB
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    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

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