Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-26-10, 08:51 PM   #1
cthenn
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Bikes: 2015 Trek Emonda SLR, 2002 Litespeed Classic, 2005 Bianchi Pista, 2016 Devinci Hatchet, Some BikesDirect MTB I never ride.
Posts: 1,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap!

OK, this is a follow up from my post yesterday about going from 12x25 to a 11x25 10sp cassette.

So I took the brand new bike back to the shop, who agreed to swap out my cassette to an 11x25. I just took the rear wheel, and they put it on for me, no problem. I get it home, and put it up on the trainer to check it out. All the gears run smooth...except for the damn 11T. The chain is jumping like crazy, sitting up on the very tops of the cog teeth. It's not trying to jump to the 12, it's just trying to stay on the tops of the teeth. I played with the barrel adjuster, and the limit screw, and I can tell it's not that.

The only thing I can think of is that the dude at the shop put back the 12T lockring. Which brings me to my question. Is the lockring the same on an 11x25 and 12x25 Ultegra 6700 cassette, or are they different? The lockring appears to be a hair larger in diameter than the bottom of the groove in the 11T cog teeth.

What else could be the problem? Chain, bike, and cassette are all brand spanking new. ANNOYING!
cthenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 08:57 PM   #2
zacster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brooklyn NY
Bikes:
Posts: 4,974
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Maybe you need to set the limit screw so the chain can fall into the sprockets. And you probably need to re-center the chain on the other cogs as well. The tolerances on 10 speed are pretty tight.
zacster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 09:10 PM   #3
silver_ghost
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yep, you're right. Shimano 11 tooth and 12 tooth cassettes come with different lockrings.
silver_ghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 09:16 PM   #4
cthenn
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Bikes: 2015 Trek Emonda SLR, 2002 Litespeed Classic, 2005 Bianchi Pista, 2016 Devinci Hatchet, Some BikesDirect MTB I never ride.
Posts: 1,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Man...this shop is pissing me off. I verified on the Shimano website that yes, there are different lockrings, and they put on the 12T lockring. The size of the lockring is way too big for the 11T, that's why the chain is jumping up, not toward the next gear.

Thing is I just called the shop and asked, and the guy on the phone insisted the lockrings are the same. Guess I'll have to print out the tech sheets from Shimano and tell him "uh duh".

I hate bad service.
cthenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 09:27 PM   #5
DMF 
Elitist Troglodyte
 
DMF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas
Bikes: 03 Raleigh Professional (steel)
Posts: 6,924
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The shop is/are idiots. That is *basic*. If they can screw that up, they'll screw up anything.

Go elsewhere.


Personally, I'd cause a confrontation.
__________________
Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

- Will Rogers
DMF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 09:36 PM   #6
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,660
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
Man...this shop is pissing me off. I verified on the Shimano website that yes, there are different lockrings, and they put on the 12T lockring. The size of the lockring is way too big for the 11T, that's why the chain is jumping up, not toward the next gear.

Thing is I just called the shop and asked, and the guy on the phone insisted the lockrings are the same. Guess I'll have to print out the tech sheets from Shimano and tell him "uh duh".

I hate bad service.
Sometimes you just have to vote with your feet. After they straighten this out, I'd avoid these folks. Anyone can make a mistake but this is indicative of a totally non caring attitude.

BTW it's an interesting semantic paradox- if the mechanic actually gave a crap, you wouldn't have gotten it.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

Last edited by FBinNY; 02-26-10 at 09:41 PM.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 10:05 PM   #7
cthenn
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Bikes: 2015 Trek Emonda SLR, 2002 Litespeed Classic, 2005 Bianchi Pista, 2016 Devinci Hatchet, Some BikesDirect MTB I never ride.
Posts: 1,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Problem is, the oh-so awesome "free lifetime adjustments" is through this shop. I can do my fair share of wrenching, but one of the reasons I bought from a local shop (instead of out of state, which is what I did last time I bought a bike to avoid $300 in tax...haha F*** the man!!) was so I could get free service when I felt lazy or couldn't solve some problem. But now I'm kind of afraid, laf.

Had I known then what I know now...
cthenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 10:14 PM   #8
Panthers007
Great State of Varmint
 
Panthers007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dante's Third Ring
Bikes:
Posts: 7,479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
Problem is, the oh-so awesome "free lifetime adjustments" is through this shop.
Change that to "free lifetime vandalizing" of your bike. As others have suggested - find another shop.
Panthers007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 10:28 PM   #9
TLCFORBIKES
Senior Member
 
TLCFORBIKES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Bikes: 1983 Gureciotti/full SR 2002 Casati Record 10 speed 1995 Colnago C40 2007 Sram Rival 2006 Isaac Sram Force 2000 DEAN Ti DA 10 speed 1987 Schwinn Prologue Funny Bike 2001 Pinarello DA 9 speed 2008 Element6 Record 10speed Origin8 Lutegra10speed
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Free lifetime service is worth every penny. The type of service you have received is typical of lifetime service. Rare is the case that lifetime service is worth anything. Get the lockring situation corrected and never go back - at least never get any work done on your bike.
TLCFORBIKES is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 10:43 PM   #10
Yellowbeard
Senior Member
 
Yellowbeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ontario
Bikes:
Posts: 834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I did that once (whilst working at a shop). Didn't know the lockrings were different. The other difference was that I actually tested the gears, found the problem and checked with the head mechanic. An ignorant mechanic is one thing (we all start that way) but not testing a system you've worked on is just stupid.
Yellowbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 10:53 PM   #11
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,660
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard View Post
I did that once (whilst working at a shop). Didn't know the lockrings were different. The other difference was that I actually tested the gears, found the problem and checked with the head mechanic. An ignorant mechanic is one thing (we all start that way) but not testing a system you've worked on is just stupid.
You're right, there's nothing wrong with not knowing, it's not knowing that you don't know that causes problems, but what's worse is not caring.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 11:04 PM   #12
ScottNotBombs
Senior Member
 
ScottNotBombs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Joliet, IL
Bikes:
Posts: 405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLCFORBIKES View Post
Free lifetime service is worth every penny. The type of service you have received is typical of lifetime service. Rare is the case that lifetime service is worth anything. Get the lockring situation corrected and never go back - at least never get any work done on your bike.
Agreed. Craftsman has a lifetime warranty on their sockets, but I've had to go back to the store 3 times in one day for broken sockets (working on cars) so I upgraded to Matco and I haven't owned any craftsman since. Lifetime warranty doesn't mean much..
ScottNotBombs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 11:30 PM   #13
pat5319
Senior Member
 
pat5319's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Spokane WA
Bikes: Seven Axiom Ti, Trek 620, Masi cylocross (steel). Masi Souleville 8spd, Fat Chance Mtn (steel), Scwinn Triple Bar cruiser, Mazi Speciale Fix/single, Scwinn Typhonn
Posts: 1,141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You guys talk as if you've never made a mistake, give the shops a break. People can have bad days, even the best. Shimano probably never told them there was a difference and is probably the only company that uses different lock-rings. I worked in several shops and was always pissed at Shimano for the stupid sneaky sh*t they pulled to make an extra buck to make your buy extra parts to get the part you needed and by my making parts model and year specific. The even left out THE MOST NEEDED gauge in a set, I called to get the one I needed and was told I would have to buy a whole new set to get one gauge. I'll bet there aren't any obvious markings to tell they're different without looking very close, and he's probably put the things on lots of other bikes without issues or yours is the first he's seen. Shimano could have put the wrong ring ring in the box too or someone could have swiped it because they lost theirs-stranger things have happened

Last edited by pat5319; 02-26-10 at 11:42 PM. Reason: mistake/addition
pat5319 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-10, 11:59 PM   #14
TLCFORBIKES
Senior Member
 
TLCFORBIKES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Bikes: 1983 Gureciotti/full SR 2002 Casati Record 10 speed 1995 Colnago C40 2007 Sram Rival 2006 Isaac Sram Force 2000 DEAN Ti DA 10 speed 1987 Schwinn Prologue Funny Bike 2001 Pinarello DA 9 speed 2008 Element6 Record 10speed Origin8 Lutegra10speed
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
TLC for Bikes is a shop (www.tlc4bikes.com) and I am the mechanic (and owner). I will admit to any mistake and have made a few in the 38 yrs of wrenching. For years all manufactures (Shimano,Campagnolo,Sram) have used a smaller lockring on a 11t cog vs a 12t cog -- common knowledge. I do give free service in some cases but I will not advertise lifetime free service. Good/Great service is always worth paying for. I do not believe in the payscale that many shops use ($75-$90 per hr. or more). I will charge less but regardless what is charged -- if the service is good/fast/correct then a fee for that service is reasonable.
TLCFORBIKES is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 12:12 AM   #15
Sixty Fiver
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
 
Sixty Fiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: YEG
Bikes: See my sig...
Posts: 27,262
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
I consider it to be basic knowledge that an 11 tooth cog needs a smaller lockring than a 12 tooth cog and if I had made this mistake in my shop, because it is a pretty easy one to do, I'd fix it.

Mind you...nothing gets out my shops door until it has been soundly tested both on the stand and on the road... my customers don't mind a little dust on the tyres as they know I really make sure a bike is 110 % before I call it finished.
Sixty Fiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 12:13 AM   #16
pat5319
Senior Member
 
pat5319's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Spokane WA
Bikes: Seven Axiom Ti, Trek 620, Masi cylocross (steel). Masi Souleville 8spd, Fat Chance Mtn (steel), Scwinn Triple Bar cruiser, Mazi Speciale Fix/single, Scwinn Typhonn
Posts: 1,141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
oops!!!! my apologies for miss-statement on lock-ring sizes, I've been out of the business for for awhile and never use 11t (prefer more gears in the middle)
pat5319 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 01:38 AM   #17
bikinfool
I have senior moments...
 
bikinfool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Woodside, CA
Bikes: Many
Posts: 2,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I can't imagine taking my bike to a shop to swap a cassette....or is this some deal where they give you some tradein on the old one?
bikinfool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 06:13 AM   #18
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The OP is acting like the shop killed ran over his dog with a pickup truck. It was a mistake, big ****ing whoop. No shop has a 0% error rate on repairs/service.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 06:14 AM   #19
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF View Post
The shop is/are idiots. That is *basic*. If they can screw that up, they'll screw up anything.

Go elsewhere.


Personally, I'd cause a confrontation.
You got to be kidding me.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 07:34 AM   #20
alaris
Member
 
alaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikinfool View Post
I can't imagine taking my bike to a shop to swap a cassette....
+1

A few basic tools are required and this is not rocket science...
alaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 07:40 AM   #21
DOS
Senior Member
 
DOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Arlington, VA USA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
I dont know that I'd give up on the whole shop but I would make sure I avoided that partcular mechanic. In the two LBS I go to, there are guys I want working on my bikes and guys I don't. So make friends with the mechanics you trust.
DOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 08:49 AM   #22
DieselDan
Senior Member
 
DieselDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Beaufort, South Carolina, USA and surrounding islands.
Bikes: Cannondale R500, Motobecane Messenger
Posts: 8,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
The OP is acting like the shop killed ran over his dog with a pickup truck. It was a mistake, big ****ing whoop. No shop has a 0% error rate on repairs/service.
I wonder how much BS the OP left out that distracted the mechanic to where the mechanic mixed up the lock rings.

If the former VP is such a VIP ends up MIA with the VC we'll all be on KP.
DieselDan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 09:06 AM   #23
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 28,844
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
The OP is acting like the shop killed ran over his dog with a pickup truck. It was a mistake, big ****ing whoop. No shop has a 0% error rate on repairs/service.
I don't think the real problem is in having the wrong lockring installed; that kind of oversight can happen to anyone. The problem was in insisting there is no difference in lockrings. As noted by several posters above, every maker uses a smaller lockring for 11T cogs than for 12T and above cogs and that should indeed be "common knowledge".
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 09:34 AM   #24
ARider2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
I don't think the real problem is in having the wrong lockring installed; that kind of oversight can happen to anyone. The problem was in insisting there is no difference in lockrings. As noted by several posters above, every maker uses a smaller lockring for 11T cogs than for 12T and above cogs and that should indeed be "common knowledge".
+ 1

Plus, the bike should have been tested on the stand, and on the road, so it could be confirmed that the job was done properly. Testing is part of quality control and would have identified there was a problem to the mechanic so that it could be corrected.

EDIT: Oops, now I see that the OP only brought the wheel in, so no way the bike could have been tested on the stand or on the road.

Last edited by ARider2; 02-27-10 at 11:56 AM.
ARider2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-10, 09:42 AM   #25
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,660
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARider2 View Post
+ 1

Plus, the bike should have been tested on the stand, and on the road, so it could be confirmed that the job was done properly. Testing is part of quality control and would have identified there was a problem to the mechanic so that it could be corrected.
Hillrider said it perfectly, anyone could have made this mistake under the circumstances, the sin was in insisting that they didn't.

The mechanic might be blamed for not thinking or being distracted, but testing wasn't an option because he only had the wheel.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:14 AM.