ADSR

I'm very sorry if this is a repeat thread, but I can't seem to get the search function to work, and I've tried Google, but those darned Boolean operators just don't seem to work for me.

That said, I'm looking into purchasing a brand new Campagnolo Veloce groupset and installing it myself. I know I need a bottom bracket tool that isn't too expensive, but the chain tool is worrying me. I know that 11-speed chains require a special one, but I'm not sure if the 10-speed chains do. I've already got a cheap chain tool and wouldn't mind actually ponying up for a Park, but the fact that Campagnolo's is over 120 dollars seems a touch excessive. Will it kill the chain to use my existing tool, and if so can I just buy an aftermarket chain that it will work with? Sorry if it's a silly question, but Campagnolo components aren't exactly common around here, and I'd hate to buy something that I couldn't maintain on my own.

Thanks!

DaveSSS 

You don't need the Campy chain tool for a 10 speed chain. You can buy masterlinks that fit (read further down the page). Park also shows how to use their tool with the Campy joining pin on their website.

Also, any 10 speed chain can be used with Campy 10, but Campy chains last longer.

ADSR

Excellent to hear, thank you! Shall I also assume that there is no magical mystique to the shifter and brake cables as well?

thirdgenbird

just to clarify, to use Campagnolos connector links, you DO need the special tool. any chain tool will break it, but only thiers (and the park) will join it.


like dave stated however, there are aftermarket master links available that will allow you to get around that. if you use the Campagnolo chain, just make sure you get the campagnolo master link the ones i ordered say "for Campagnolo ONLY"


enjoy! their groups are great!

edit:
Campagnolo does use smaller diameter housing, but there is enough room to use other stuff on thier 8/9/10 speed groups. 11 speed housing is smaller yet, and if you use something else you will have to modify it to fit.

Steev

Campagnolo shift cables use a smaller head. If you try to use Shimano shift cables you will have problems seating the cable in the shifter and may have to drill the head out later. It is easy to file the head down to fit, it's even easier, but more expensive to use the correct cable.

ultraman6970

+1 with Steev

Regarding a 10speed chain as somebody said any 10 sp chain will work, the kmc chains are more than good stuff in my opinion. Regarding the masterlink, the kmc chains come with one in the box already just in case (at least the one i got). There is a wipperman masterlink that u might be able to find in any shop like performance for example which works fine with any 10 sp chains. If you go to a campy chain get a masterlink will make your life way easier.

Wipermann chains for 10 speed can be found in the shops also. No idea about shimano chains in campagnolo drivetrains, thats like heresy

adamrice 

A lot of shifter cables come double-ended, with a Shimano stop on one end and a Campy stop on the other. If you get one of these, make sure not to clip the wrong end.

Kimmo 

: D

Word.

ADSR

Hey everyone, thank you so much for the great information. I've been looking into the takeup capacity of the rear dérailleur, and it seems with a compact crank the best cassette option I'd have would create a 27-tooth difference. The short cage has a 26-tooth capacity. Will the extra tooth ruin everything or should I just sack up and get the medium cage rear dérailleur?

Kimmo 

It's worth a shot, isn't it? If you can't make it work properly, buy another derailleur then.

DaveSSS 

Campy 10 chains have a special joining pin. Any good quality chain tool can be used to install the pin, but it takes extra care - see the Park tool website.

You can use any cable housing with pre 2009 shifters. 2009-10 ultrashift levers, both 10 and 11 speed, need either Campy's 4.1mm ultra low friction housing or other low friction 4mm housing. I've had good luck with Shimano housing as a Campy substitute.

DaveSSS 

A short cage RD will work with a 50/34 and any cassette Campy sells, except a 13-29. The 27T wrap capacity is not accurate. Campy used to advertise the wrap capacity to match the crank and cassettes they sold - before compact cranks came out. When compacts came out, the RD magically had more wrap capacity, despite no changes to the cage length.

thirdgenbird

dave, you are my hero.

operator

1) Short cage = standard/compact + all campy cogset except 13-29
2) Medium cage = standard/compact + all campy cogsets
3) Medium cage = triple + all campy cogsets except 13-29
4) Long cage = triple = all campy cogsets (special chain length consideration for some rear cog combos)

Direct from the campy manual.

ADSR

This.

Edit: operator, you're also fully awesome. I really appreciate everyone's help with this.

rm -rf

I replied to a PM about my use of a 13-29 with a short cage derailleur. This isn't supposed to work, but it often does work OK. So I'm posting the info on this old thread, too.

Here's the question to me:

Hi,

I've got a 13-29 Campy cassette, never mounted, and am looking at mounting it on a setup very similar to yours: 50-34 compact chainset, short throw derailleur, and the 13-29 cassette.


Some questions, if you don't mind:

Did you make up a chain specifically for this setup? If so, how long was/is it?

Approximately how long are your chainstays?

Did you make any adjustments to your rear derailleur?

Are there any other tips or ideas you can share?

Thanks in advance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fitting a 13-29

I just used my existing chain. I had a 13-26 before.

The 13-29 is "supposed" to be too big to work with the short throw derailleur, but a lot of riders had success with it. Actually, I don't remember anybody posting that the 13-29 didn't work for them.

Fit isn't necessarily related to chainstay length, I don't think. Probably the chain stay length and the angle of the dropout all work together.

Just swap the cassette and use your existing chain. I have a bike stand, so I could shift to the big chainring-big 29 cog and see if the chain was long enough for the big-big combination, and also not too long for the small-small combo.

Go to the big chainring, then carefully shift up to the 29 cog.

In the big-big combo, my derailleur still isn't stretched out flat. It still has a small angle to take up the slack. The top derailleur pulley doesn't hit the 29 cog. It's very close though. I adjusted the "B screw", the rack and pinion adjustment at the base of the top pulley, counterclockwise to have a little less tension on the cage rotation, to lower the top pulley slightly. Edit--that didn't shift very well--I moved it back to the middle of it's range--much better.

In the small-small combo, the derailleur is almost folded back all the way. But there's still tension on the chain, and the chain doesn't touch the top pulley again as it passes out of the bottom pulley. (Even it if did touch, it would still work reasonably well--I unkowningly rode it that way when the bike was new with a 12-25, because the LBS left the chain a little too long.)

I this is actually the reason the 13-29 isn't recommended by Campagnolo, because on some bikes, the short cage might not be able to take up the slack on the small-small.

If the chain is too short for the big-big, you'll need to extend it. That's tricky to do correctly, maybe you have the leftover chain from when it was cut to fit. Make sure you use the replacement pins that come with a new chain. Never re-use a pushed out pin.

If it's too long, you'll need to shorten it. But before shortening, kind of hold it by hand with a couple of links pulled together in your fingers, and see if that looks correct. Remember, you always have to remove an outside and an inside link, making the chain 1 inch shorter.

You might want to use this quick link, Wipperman Connex 10 speed narrow. These work great, and you don't have to be technical with the pin install. The quick link replaces one of the outside links, and connects to two inside links.

HillRider

Small-small isn't a useful gear and shifting into it with a derailleur that can't quite handle the wrap isn't a big deal, just a bit noisy, unlike big-big where a too short chain can cause a disaster.

DaveSSS 

Figuring out the big/big question is simple if you have a new chain to be installed or your chain has a master link. Just unthread it from the RD, then wrap it around the big/big. The chain must have at least one inch of excess length. If you're sizing a new chain and the ends that meet are the same - both outer plates, then you must add 1-1/2 inches or 3 links.

If the chain hangs loose in the little/little after th chain is installed, then you've exceeded the wrap capacity.

The problem no longer occurs with the 2010+ RDs, since the short cage is made to handle a 29T max cog, with a 50/34.

trescojones

I had hassles with a wipperman connex connector until i discovered i hadnt put it on right way around doesnt look as obvious as some. The campag cables have always been stiffer and a bit beefier than shimano changes the action imho.

Imho Campag is not touchy to adjust. A lot of components have some repairability and material redundancy.
I really enjoy the older, very positive and rock solid loud mechanical shift style of the earlier ergopower groups. It can be replicated beautifully by using these casettes with have the same tooth profile,kinda matches the more retro style of veloce https://www.marchisio.eu/en/sprockets-cassette/
The shop i worked in last year we would have had no problem doing a good job with it even though its not seen all that often. The only issue would might be spares availibility from sales reps ect but we live in the online age.
Does ADSR come from the same place as LFO? .

speedevil 

I installed Campy Veloce on the first bike I ever built, a Cannondale CAAD8, and I had the LBS fine-tune the derailleur adjustments. They were close but not quite right so I used it as a learning opportunity. I used a Wipperman chain, and I will replace it with a wipperman chain. No shift problems and the connex connector is much easier to work with than the kmc.

On the build, I just took my time and everything worked out well. I spent a lot of time on the cables, getting the housings just right. So far, about 1500 miles later, they are still shifting perfectly with no adjustments since the first one. I did buy the tools as I needed them so that I could assemble / disassemble but I figure they're a one-time expense. T think I bought the BB tool, and the cassette lockring tool - nothing else was Campy-specific. Depending on your crankset, you may need a special tool - I got the ultratorque set and I had the 10mm allen bit. The powertorque cranks need a special tool.

Good luck and if I can help, just ask.

HillRider

I've been using Wipperman chains exclusively on my Chorus 10-speed triple bike for the 7 years I've owned it and they have performed perfectly for me. You are correct that the Connex link must be installed in the proper orientation and the instruction sheet that comes with the chains is quite explicit on this point. It pays to RTFM in this case.

ADSR

So as an update, I've had this group on an old Centurion Dave Scott frame and now a Specialized S-Works E-5 and it's been great. Luckily I've moved near a shop that works on Campy gear. This was very fortunate last year when I destroyed my connecting pin and had to enlist their help.

If you're wondering if ADSR is from LFO the synth mod, yes. If you're talking about the late 90s pop group Light Funky Ones, also yes.

trescojones

awesome used to own a prophet 5 an ms202 and some other stuff thought it might be an analog reference. I should have added that i have found the wipperman chains excellent as well. I have owned 2 tange centurions, the last one i found for $25 with shimano 600 and a bad repaint job at a thrift shop because they thought it was a clunker. I love my campag but i guess its all a preference thing

Homebrew01

If you went with the suggestion of a master-link setup you would not need help. Many of us use KMC chains & links (or similar) with great results

ADSR

Ill probably do that next time. I happened to find a really good deal on a Centaur chain/cassette and jumped on.