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Old 05-04-10, 09:50 PM   #1
ClarkinHawaii 
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??Spoke Purchase??

OK, I'm going to build 4 (32-spoke) wheels (2 sets) with Velocity Deep-V rims on 105 hubs (5600 rear). (12mm nipples)

From Spocalc, it has been determined that the correct lengths are:

64@285.7mm
32@284.2mm
32@282.5mm

For free shipping, I need to get them from a store that has even-numbered lengths in bags of 50.

What are the most cost-effective quantities and lengths that while not being right-on, are close enough that nobody would ever notice?

How about 2 bags @284 and 1 bag@282? Any problems? Thanks.
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Old 05-04-10, 10:39 PM   #2
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When it comes to spokes I'm a firm believer that too long is much better than too short, especially when dealing with hollow rims.

I don't know the specific calculator, but most I've used tend to come up short with the spokes not coming close to the top of the nipple head. So based on my experience I'd go 100x286, and 50x284. If you know that builds with this calculator come out OK (to the top of the nipple) than stay with your numbers.
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Old 05-04-10, 10:49 PM   #3
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are those DT spokes?
can you buy 14mm DT nipples? as those will effectively shorten the length required by 1mm.
284 and 282 will be fine for you if your measurements are good.

I've never heard of anyone rounding up numbers, since spokes stretch and never shrink.
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Old 05-05-10, 09:41 AM   #4
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Wheelsmith spokes--I'm looking at getting all the materials in one buy from treefortbikes because they have the colored deep-v's and supposedly match prices on the hubs and free shipping over $125 or whatever.

I haVE no idea whether the measurements are correct, since I don't have the components in hand.

There's enough sharp people on here that I think I will post ALL the component info and ask forum members to correct if I've made a mistake.
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Old 05-05-10, 09:42 AM   #5
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Sheldon says to round up, which surprised me since I have visions of too-long spokes poking up through the nipples and rim tape to cause tube problems.

If I use a good spoke calculator and accurate component measurements, I get results seemingly accurate to a tenth of a mm--is this the length that screws all the way through the nipple when the wheel is built, or almost all the way, or halfway, or what? It's not mentioned anywhere, so I assumed it was all the way to the end of the nipple and wanted to round down so as not to have the potential tube problem.

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Old 05-05-10, 09:55 AM   #6
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Sheldon says to round up, which surprised me since I have visions of too-long spokes poking up through the nipples and rim tape to cause tube problems.
I round down since you can always buy longer spoke nipples if necessary, as AEO mentioned. If you round up and it's too long, you can bottom out the nipples on the threading before you get to the proper tension.
Using spocalc and rounding down, I haven't run into any problems. (although my experience is limited to only 10 pairs of wheels.)
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Old 05-05-10, 09:59 AM   #7
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No connection to the site but it might save you some headaches...Have you looked at www.universalcycles.com? They have the colored Deep V's for about the same price as Treefort and they sell individual Wheelsmith spokes so you only have to buy as many you need. Orders over $150 ship for $3.99 plus you get 10% off over $100 and 15% off over $300 using VIP10 or VIP15. I'm obviously a very happy customer of the website.
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Old 05-05-10, 10:00 AM   #8
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I round down since you can always buy longer spoke nipples if necessary, as AEO mentioned. If you round up and it's too long, you can bottom out the nipples on the threading before you get to the proper tension.
Using spocalc and rounding down, I haven't run into any problems. (although my experience is limited to only 10 pairs of wheels.)
Longer spoke nipples don't address the issue. Only the head of the nipple transfers the load from the rim to the spoke, so the consequences of short spokes is broken nipples. The consequence of too long spokes are that they stick out above the nipple, and need to be filed off if you're using single wall rims, but since most folks use double wall rims, the consequence is inconsequential.

Simple, round up for structural integrity, round down to save weight.
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Old 05-05-10, 10:15 AM   #9
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The consequence of too long spokes are that they stick out above the nipple, and need to be filed off if you're using single wall rims, but since most folks use double wall rims, the consequence is inconsequential.
Too too long spokes cause you to run out of threads before achieving proper tension though, which is a real PITA especially when you only want about 20 kgf more but you can't get it (maintaining tension would be a future problem as well). I'd hesistate to go more than 1mm longer than calculated. I got almost burned going 1.5mm longer (trying to use the same length spoke left and right on a front disc wheel). I got the wheel up to tension but I was completely out of threads on some spokes. That bike only lasted 800 miles (do you really want to know?) and the wheel is about to be disassembled and the parts built into different wheels, with proper length spokes this time around. My mind will be much more settled not thinking about that issue any more
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Old 05-05-10, 01:48 PM   #10
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The best rule is to round down.

The real risk of having long spokes is that you may run out of threads before reaching the needed tension. Drive side rear spokes are more critical because high tension may cause them to stretch. If you run out of threads (bottom out) you will get to throw them away and start over with shorter spokes. This happens quite often, especially with double butted or thin spokes.

With drive side rear spokes it would be better to round down more than 1 mm that to round up 0.1 mm.

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Old 05-05-10, 02:15 PM   #11
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Don't buy longer than 286.00 for the front...

Don't buy longer than 285.00 for the rear left...

Don't buy longer than 283.00 for the rear right...

Use standard nipples, i.e., your typical included DT, Wheelsmith, etc. nipples that'll allow threading a mm past the top.

Low profile nipples can be a toss-up - some will stop the spoke before the top.

Also, consider using 14mm nipples - else be very careful around the sleeved joint. 12mm will result in the bottom of the Park Spoke Wrench occasionally scratching the finish if you are not careful.

A lot of aero rims like the DeepV and Mavic's CXP-33 with sleeved joints cause the two joint nipples to sit a millimeter deeper. Hence the occasional scrape of the finish...

If you can get to an LBS with a spoke machine - 285.5 / 284.5 / 282.5 would be perfect!

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Old 05-05-10, 03:30 PM   #12
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Clark, take my advice and do not take price into consideration. Due to your location and weight this isnt something you want to do twice. Honestly, if your not going to do a build with DT Alpines you might as well buy prebuilt wheels and save yourself some headaches. Order yourself some prebuilt 29'r wheels and be done with it.
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Old 05-05-10, 04:17 PM   #13
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Too too long spokes cause you to run out of threads before achieving proper tension though, which is a real PITA especially when you only want about 20 kgf more but you can't get it (maintaining tension would be a future problem as well).
That was what I was trying to say about 'bottoming out' on a too long spoke. Had that problem with my most recent build, had to go back and get new spokes for one side.
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Old 05-05-10, 08:23 PM   #14
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Honestly, if your not going to do a build with DT Alpines you might as well buy prebuilt wheels and save yourself some headaches. Order yourself some prebuilt 29'r wheels and be done with it.
God, I love this forum! Come on, Jim, Don't mince words--Tell us what you REALLY think about those Alpines!

(as straight man): Aren't all spokes the same???

seriously, i never heard of them--why are they so good?

I'm gonna follow up on all the good tips--Thanks, Everybody!!!!!
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Old 05-05-10, 09:02 PM   #15
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That was what I was trying to say about 'bottoming out' on a too long spoke. Had that problem with my most recent build, had to go back and get new spokes for one side.
This is the real risk of rounding up.
Always round down.
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Old 05-07-10, 12:46 AM   #16
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Measure the actual ERD at four places. Use the average value. For that rim and hub combo, I'd go with 286, 284, and 282. 284 for the front hub would probably be too short unless you're willing to crank up the spoke tension an extra 1 to 1.5 turn. This will not harm the spokes, nipples, or rim. Make sure you apply grease to the thread and nipple's seat to reduce friction.

Get a quality spoke wrench that will grab the nipple on all four sides. This is critical if you're going to crank up the tension so that the end of the spoke is within 0.5mm of the end of the nipple.
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