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Old 06-06-10, 06:12 PM   #1
tomn
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Moving Phil Wood Spindle

Hi All,

I saw a web site with pictures that showed how to drift the spindle inside a Phil Wood bottom bracket using common tools. I have an asymmetrical bottom bracket and I want to drift the spindle to be symmetrical. Has anyone seen the site, or can you refresh my memory?

Thanks,
Tom
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Old 06-06-10, 07:17 PM   #2
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50L5yRZ7icc from Phil Wood gives the general idea: appropriate pressure and plates or tubes with holes the
right size in them. Lacking a press, a length of allthread through the spindle with some washers and a piece of tubing with an ID essentially
the same as the inner bearing race on the bearing will allow the spindle to be extruded through, you may have to reset the opposite side
bearing, but it won't fall off unless you push more than the thickness of the bearing.
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Old 07-23-10, 11:27 PM   #3
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Im having issue with my PW BB spindle moving - different prob than OP. I tried assembling the spindle both ways - so that the shoulder was on both the drive and non-drive sides. The spindle "walks out" of the bearing ID race. Any ideas? Ive owned this BB for years and its been good, but now Im having alignment issues since my chainline is dynamically changing over a 50 mi bike ride.....

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Old 07-23-10, 11:52 PM   #4
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Im having issue with my PW BB spindle moving - different prob than OP. I tried assembling the spindle both ways - so that the shoulder was on both the drive and non-drive sides. The spindle "walks out" of the bearing ID race. Any ideas? Ive owned this BB for years and its been good, but now Im having alignment issues since my chainline is dynamically changing over a 50 mi bike ride.....
what?

The cups are moving? Or?
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Old 07-24-10, 07:52 AM   #5
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No - thats what weird. The cups are not moving. The only thing moving is the spindle. When I get home a few quick hits with a mallet to the crank and I can push the spindle back to original position between the bearings. I thought the bearings were out of spec so I replaced them and its the same problem. Why would this be happening? I installed the spindle with the shoulder toward the drive side so that my chainrings wont bottom out in the frame...
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Old 07-24-10, 08:32 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by tj90 View Post
No - thats what weird. The cups are not moving. The only thing moving is the spindle. When I get home a few quick hits with a mallet to the crank and I can push the spindle back to original position between the bearings. I thought the bearings were out of spec so I replaced them and its the same problem. Why would this be happening? I installed the spindle with the shoulder toward the drive side so that my chainrings wont bottom out in the frame...
did you contact Wood? it sounds like something has worn prematurely.

as for the OPs question, from what I saw on the P Wood site you need a good press for moving that spindle. if you changed your cranks you may be able to center the spindle following the directions on the website. but most likely you need a new BB with the correct spindle.
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Old 07-24-10, 04:42 PM   #7
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The Phil spindle has a pressed on spacer that should keep it in place. It doesn't always work. I had phil send me one and with two the axle doesn't wander.
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Old 07-24-10, 05:38 PM   #8
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I took the BB apart again. I measured the spindle diameter adjacent to the spacer and it measured 16.97mm!! The other side is 17mm on the nose. I presume that the spindle needs to be 17mm for a good solid press fit. THe bearing measures 17mm on the ID. It just slides in and out of spindle and has slight detectable play. I cant believe that I "wore out" my spindle. It has been 10 years.

Might be a good opportunity to "upgrade" to Ti spindle. I seems that universal has the best price on these BBs - $108 SS version and $170 for Ti. Any other cheap sources? Of course, square taper is "dying" so maybe just go with SS and go Ultratorque sometime down the road.

In the meantime, to get the bike back on the road, Im thinking of using loctite to "fill the gap" at the spindle. Any other temporary ideas until I get a new spindle?

Last edited by tj90; 07-24-10 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 07-24-10, 06:25 PM   #9
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Its not the spindle that is the problem and loctite probably won't hold it in place (99.8% sure on this point). The problem is the small "spacer" or "ring" that is pressed onto the spindle to keep it from drifting from side to side, I consider it a "stop", that is stretched beyond its holding capacity on the spindle. Contact Phil Wood and either get them to send you a new one of these "stops" so that you can either replace the existing one or install it in addition to the current one as has been suggested. All this is assuming you have the ability to press the the stop on and off the spindle. If you plan to use a hammer to install it, you might as well send the BB back to Phil to get it aligned and fixed so that it won't move. It would probably only be bearing service fee, much cheaper than replacement, I think $35 + S&H.
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Old 07-24-10, 07:21 PM   #10
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THanks Canopus. The stop is actually not loose. The BB doesnt "walk" in the direction of the stop. It walks the other way! THe bearing can be moved by hand on the spindle! No press required. I used other bearings and they are all loose.

I read in MTBR that loose bearings may be fixed with Loctite 640. GOing to NAPA to try.

If it doesnt work, Ill probably abandon for MegaEXO or Ultratorque. Too many newer technologies than square taper.
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Old 07-24-10, 09:17 PM   #11
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THanks Canopus. The stop is actually not loose. The BB doesnt "walk" in the direction of the stop. It walks the other way! THe bearing can be moved by hand on the spindle! No press required. I used other bearings and they are all loose.

I read in MTBR that loose bearings may be fixed with Loctite 640. GOing to NAPA to try.

If it doesnt work, Ill probably abandon for MegaEXO or Ultratorque. Too many newer technologies than square taper.
Do not buy into any FSA/GXP type BB systems. They suck hard. If you are going to buy into a deprecated standard. Go ultratorque or shimano external. BB30 WILL be the high end road standard next year.
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Old 07-25-10, 09:22 AM   #12
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If it doesnt work, Ill probably abandon for MegaEXO or Ultratorque. Too many newer technologies than square taper.

You do know Phil Wood BB's have a lifetime warranty against defects, do you not? What you describe is a manufacturing defect. Contact PW and they should take care of you.

If you just want to give up on a perfectly good square taper BB, go ahead. Who's to say an external BB is without their issues ? "Newer Technologies" as you put it, is largely marketing at it's best to suggest to you that the newer is better. Believe what you will.

If you don't want to bother with the PW BB, just get a Shimano BB for your current crank rather than ditching it for another crank. I'm sure there will be someone who will take the PW BB off your hands.
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Old 07-25-10, 10:35 AM   #13
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You Can Press the spindle sideways to re center or slightly shift it. The bearing ID is a precise 'press fit '
match with the axle , and so will slide when enough force is applied, in a machine shop they have arbor Presses,

In a home situation I shifted my Phil BB, [new style] you need the 2 Phil lock ring tools , a thick enough flatwasher

'fender washer' i.e. wider washer with a smaller hole..

and use the crank arm fixing bolt to Pull the spindle thru the installation lock ring tools
which fits against the outer edge of the bearing.
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Old 07-25-10, 06:19 PM   #14
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Here is the post (from 2005) I found helpful from MTBR. I ended up using loctite 640 or as its called now "Permatex high temperature sleeve retainer #64000". It seems to be holding - bearing is very tight on the spindle. No play detectable. If it doesnt move for the next 1000 miles+ then Im happy. If I dont follow-up to this post, then assume that the BB is still in service and the 640 is doing its job.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

In case it helps the next poor slob that follows in my footsteps, here's what I found out. When I searched for Loctite 609 or 680, I actually found two local places that had something similar - Permatex High Strength Sleave Retainer. I ended up going back and buying it, and that's what I ended up using yesterday. I'll try to post a follow up after a month or two of abuse. All of the places that I went to only had Permatex brand - no Loctite stuff. At least one parts counter guy told me that Permatex bought the company Loctite, and they've slowly been changing all of the Loctite packages and part numbers to Permatex versions. While all of the new Permatex numbers are similar to the Loctite ones, Permatex doesn't put the part number on the package - at least not that I noticed. Instead just the title of the product, which is always different from what Loctite called it.

After visiting both Permatex and downloading the Permatex catalogue from their website (it's 11 Megs! http://www.permatex.com/products/main_prodidx.asp), as well as looking at the product info on Loctite's site for 609 and 680 (http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/index.cfm then click on "search" at the bottom of the page, and enter "609", and also "680"), here's what I've concluded:

1) Loctite 609 is described as "Retaining Compound - General Purpose". It's low viscosity, and it's ideal for gaps up to .005". It fixtures (cures?) in 10 min, and fully fixtures in 24 hours. After which, it has a sheer strength of 3000 psi, and is good up to 300 deg F. The equivalent product from Permatex appears to be: "Permatex Bearing Mount for Close Fits", p/n 60940.
2) Loctite 680 is described as "Retaining Compound - High Strength/High Viscosity". It's ideal for gaps up to .015". It fixtures in 10 minutes, and has a sheer strength of 4000 psi, and is good up to 300 deg F. The equivalent Permatex product appears to be: "Permatex Bearing Mount for Relaxed Fits", p/n 68040.
3) The stuff I bought, Permatex High Strength Sleeve Retainer, has a Permatex part number of 64000 or 64040 depending on the size of the bottle, and is equivalent to Loctite 640. I found it at two parts stores (a Parts Plus chain store, and one other one that I forget the name of). It fixtures in 1 hour, and fully fixtures in 24 hours. It's good for gaps up to .007", has a sheer strength of 3000 psi, and is good up to 400 deg F.

Incedentally, all of the above mentioned products are green colored liquids. (I always like to refer to Loctite 240 as "blue Loctite", as do most of my buds).

So, my conclusions are: I'm guessing by the numbers that any of the stuff mentioned will work fine. Santa Cruz seems to have switched from Loctite 609 to Loctite 680, perhaps because it's rated for a higher sheer strength. It seems that Permatex 64040 is the same as Loctite 640, and seems to be way more commonly carried than any of the other green retaining compounds. It takes longer to fixture compared to Loctite 680 (1 hour vs. 10 minutes), it doesn't have quite as high sheer strength (3000psi vs. 4000psi), nor is it able to fill as large of a gap (.007" vs. .015"), but it's able to handle higher temps (400deg vs. 300deg). Whatever... It's pretty similar stuff, and I'm hoping it will work just as well for this application...

Did I put anybody to sleep???

Last edited by tj90; 07-25-10 at 06:23 PM.
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