koamileli

Hi all, i've gleaned a ton of knowledge from this site already but now I need some specific opinions. I'm 6 foot 3, 200 lbs and I ride my Raleigh Cadent 2 (not a FG or SS) fast and hard on the hilly, riddled streets of Seattle. The bike has held up really well, but the cheapo stock Novatec hubs and Alexrims are done.
I will be building my own set of wheels to save money, so i'll be able to spend a little more on the components themselves. So, on that note, what do you guys think would do me well with a $500 budget? As an aside, I don't intentionally go looking for things to jump on this bike, but often times I need to drop off some curbs and bunny hop over pot holes, etc. so everything needs to be strong. I've also heard that you shouldn't have the same spoke count on both wheels (more in back) If that is indeed true, would that apply in this case? Deep V rims are NOT the choice here i've been told as well. Thank you in advance for any input, I greatly appreciate it!!!

mrrabbit 

Anything double-wall, double eyelet, that starts out intended for 700 x 28c - 35c tires.

Mavic A719
DT TK540s

If you can get some Phil Wood hubsets (cross/road front and cross/road 135mm cassette rear...) that'd be nice...but they are not cheap.

Shimano Deore XT hubset would be a good choice.

DT Swiss 14/15/14 (2.0/1.8/2.0) stainless steel spokes with brass nipples.

3X front and rear lacing.

(I believe your Cadent uses a 135mm rear....)

110-115 kgf drive side tension...100-103 kgf front should do.

=8-)

dabac

"Shouldn't" is a bit strong. The reasoning goes that as the front wheel carries less load than the rear, then having the same spoke count front and back means that either your front wheel is heavier(and stronger) than it needs to be, or your rear wheel is weaker than it should be.
It's a question of optimization(or lack thereof). In practical terms the drawback to having a few spokes more than absolutely required in the front is negligible outside race conditions.

Wheelbuilding is fun, but that is usually false economy. As a rule buying the parts separately is more expensive than buying complete wheels.

Heavy rider, fast and hard, looking for durability - That's a good reason to look for 2.0/1.5/2.0 NDS spokes and 2.0/1.8/2.0 DS spokes. Maybe a 32H front and a 36H rear.

Mr IGH

a319 are very strong rims, stronger and cheaper than a719, I even use 'em on my 29er MTB. Lowest cost source for wheels is bicyclewheelwarehouse.com. I can't buy the parts as cheap as the built wheels from bww. Here's a good set of a319/Deore/DT for the street:

https://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com...d&productId=79

WillJL

You can build some really saucy wheels for $500 dollars, but does that budget include buying a wheel truing stand, spokeprep, and a spoke wrench? Just a consideration...

I'm a big fan of the Mavic A319 and A719 rims. The eyelets make them super easy to build, and they are magnificently made. I've built 3 sets of wheels with A719s for my wife and I, and we've never had any issues, over thousands of miles of loaded touring and commuting, on rough roads, dropping of curbs, nailing potholes at speed, etc... (I've never even had to touch these wheels with a spoke wrench since I built them, actually)

Any double butted spokes should be fine.

Go with a Shimano XT hub for the rear. You could spend a lot more money and not get any better of a hub.

Consider a dynamo hub for the front, since you're saving a bit of money by building your own custom wheels . You need lights right? Batteries are a bummer, right? The new Shimano dynamo hubs are cheap and modern LED lights, such as the Busch and Mueller IQ-Cyo are bright as all get-out.

For spoke count, a guy your size should not be considering any less than a 36 spoke rear wheel. That said, 36r/36f or 36r/32f is going to make little difference in weight and performance. I say just go with 36/36 and build both your wheels 4 cross and beat the *&%$ out of them without any fears.

Don't forget to buy rim tape!

koamileli

Ahh yes. I must've heard the "shouldn't" from a racer then! A couple of ounces or pounds then isn't going to matter to me if it means my wheels staying alive. I have enough leg strength to make up for the extra weight from riding around my SS with 52-17 gearing. Saving a little dough is always nice too, but I really want to build my own. I'm a pretty decent mechanic and it's the next step for me logically. Plus I can't ever seem to get real info from shops cause all they want to do is plug their own wheels. Basically i'm done paying for labor, that sh*t is expensive!!

koamileli

Seems that alot of shops recommend the Shimano 105 hub. Isn't that a bit lower on the durability scale? Ugh, I talked to 5 different shops about my requirements and they all have completely different outlooks. Oh, forgot to mention my stock front wheel is radial spoked. That is definitely a no-no for what I need, correct?
$500 is just for the wheels. I'll pay extra for the stand, etc..

BCRider

I'd second the idea of going with a slightly wider rim such as the Mavic 319 and use 28mm tires. It sounds like you could use the extra padding of the 28 and the wider rim that it would sit on more correctly. In effect you'd be buying or building a set of cyclocross wheels but using road tires of suitable width.

And given the nature of the weather in Seattle, which isn't any different from where I am, I'd look at using mountain bike hubs just for the better sealing to try and keep the water and muck at bay. You may need to fiddle with the spacers and axle to fit your frame's rear spacing but I think it would be worth it. XT hubs are a good bang for the buck on that count.

Radial isn't all that bad but if I were building a set if wheels for the sort of conditions and usage you're describing I'd opt for good ol' basic 3 cross on 32 hole wheels. Or if you regularly carry a lot of heavier loads on a rack go 32 on the front and 36 on the rear.... or just go 36 on both ends. The few grams extra weight is diddly when your goal is a long lifespan of aggresive use under difficult conditions.

koamileli

Butted or double butted spokes are operating on the same principle as frame tubing, yes? So the only thing I would be gaining over straight gauge is lighter weight then?

Kotts

Nope, since spokes are tensioned you are gaining durability. The thinner center section provides a little "give" in response to shock loading, which reduces the loading at the ends, where the stresses lead to broken spokes.

barturtle

From what I understand the thinner center section can allow some additional stretch in demanding situations, helping to protect the more delicate ends from breaking.

koamileli

The weather won't be an issue, as this is my fair weather bike. I have a beater FG for that.

Thinking I should just go with 36 spoke F/R for peace of mind. Wider rim and tire sounds pretty nice too. Would the wider rim employ any different lacing techniques or is that irrelevant?

How about the low down on some nipples?

cny-bikeman

Whatever nipples come with good quality sokes should be fine, as long as they're brass.

noglider 

It should save money to have the same spoke count on front and rear. How many spokes on your current beat-up wheels? If 32, then you should be able to rebuild, using your existing hubs. Are the bearings shot?

Shimano 105 hubs should be fine, if you need to buy hubs. Shimano makes very good hubs, even lower line hubs. This says a lot, coming from me, because I am sometimes a Shimano detractor.

If you really do need hubs and if you can get 36-spoke wheels rims and hubs, consider it. Of course, some will call it overkill, but the cost and weight are not much more at all, and it will definitely add strength. The difference in weight is negligible, given your weight and the purpose you're putting the wheels to. The two bikes I ride the most have 36 spoke wheels, and I do fine. The wheels are over 20 years old, which some will say is proof that they're heavier than they need to be, but I like the fact that they've lasted this long. I built them myself.

Butted spokes make a more durable wheel but they take more time to build up. This is because they tend to twist when you tension them. If you're not sure of your skill, consider 14-gauge straight-gauge spokes. They'll be fine, especially if you use high quality spokes.

Speaking of spokes, buy the very best. You get your money's worth. The wheel builds up better, and it lasts longer. Buy DT or Wheelsmith or any brand that has a reputation equal to those brands. And yes, use brass nipples only!

A truing stand will make it easier and more enjoyable, but it's not absolutely necessary. If you don't foresee building many more wheels, you can use your own bike or borrow a truing stand. But you should definitely buy yourself a high quality spoke wrench. They're very inexpensive. You can check the dishing of your wheel with two stacks of books or something like that.

sonatageek

Make sure you are pricing out wheels with road hubs in back -- 130 spacing and not 135 spacing.

BCRider

Noglider said it all very well. And to answer your question the width of the rim makes no difference at all to the lacing or desireable spoke tension. And all the 105 stuff I've used over the years has help up and performed excellently. It's good solid performing stuff at a mainstream price point. You should not apoligise or think you're compromising by going with 105. From there you're just buying more bling, a "name" and shaving a few grams with no solid improvement in life span or performance. The only point would be that higher end rear freehubs MAY have a slightly better weather seal on the freehub to wheel hub joint.

noglider 

I agree with BCRider, of course, but I will add that wider rims are stronger than narrower rims, all other things being equal. You have to make a weight/strength compromise. It's hard to say what the ideal rim weight for you is. If it's too heavy, the wheels will slow you down in an annoying way. If you have good riding technique, using your legs and arms as a suspension, you can ride lighter rims than someone who just sits in the saddle over bumps and curbs. Also, if you are meticulous about keeping your tires pumped, that will help.

We may want to talk about tires, too. Wider tires and higher pressure preserve your wheels. I've found that the Pararacer Pasela tire is inexpensive and rolls beautifully, even with a 32mm width. It's one of my favorite tires of all time, and it's only about $20 each.

ColonelJLloyd 

I have this rear wheel. I have the same rim up front, but I use a dynamo hub. Here's the front. They're strong rims and they look great. Both wheels would cost less than $250 shipped. I'd have them trued after a hundred miles or so and then you're good.

I wouldn't go less than 36h in the back.

ColonelJLloyd 

+1

noglider 

Those look like very nice wheels ColonelJLloyd, and the price is very good, especially since they're hand built. It's sad that doing it yourself costs more than buying pre-made wheels. You should be able to put a 32mm tire on that rim. The rims might be similar to the rims I'm riding that I mentioned above, i.e. over 20 years old. I bet these VO rims are stronger and are either lighter or the same weight. I weigh only 175, but I occasionally carry cargo on my bike.

Another point about wheel strength: if you carry cargo, you need stronger wheels than if you don't. Your cargo can't pick itself up over bumps the way the rider can, so it places extra stress on wheels. This is where you may have to ride a heavier wheel than you like. You may want to put your cargo on the front to prevent added stress to an already-stressed rear wheel. Rear wheels take a big beating, and they are inherently weaker because they are asymmetrical.

koamileli

I am a 15 year mountain biker by nature, so i'm very good at using the terrain to my advantage (pumping, getting light, floating over obstacles, soaking up hits, etc..) I am actually riding a Brooks on this bike, but it's looking like it will take forever to break in as i'm so used to being out of the saddle! I also top off my tires before EVERY ride, no exceptions. I suppose i'm kind of anal, I just like things to be right.

Currently I have Panaracer Tserv rubber installed. So far so good! Way easier to change with a flexible bead than the Vittoria's. Tread holds up nicely too.

As far as added weight, I only carry a messenger backpack with approx. 10 extra pounds in it. 15 max. I dont even use water bottles. I hate stuff dangling all over my bike. I'd rather be wearing it.

My current hubs are Novatec whatevers. They themselves seem to be fine but I just figured if i'm going to do this, I should go for the whole enchilada. The front... I just looked. 28 spokes. Yikes! Rear is 32.
Again, I have no problems with a little extra weight in this area, I would much rather be confident in my hardware. When I trail ride, I like my stuff to be durable, so hopefully I can get the same results on the road

Speaking of PSIs, I have also been told many many different things by shops on this topic. Anywhere from 100-120!! I just go by what the tire says, and it says 115 so that's what I put in there. They are 25c by the way.

I recently came across some info telling me that hanging a bike upside down by it's wheels is BAD BAD. I have done this before, even hung it by one wheel! Suddenly i'm feeling quite ********. Feel free to scold me, I probably deserve it.

koamileli

LOL I can't say re tar ded ?


...oh and we haven't discussed flange height yet. Apart from a larger one providing more stiffness, I don't know much. Should they both be high flange if I want the strength i'm looking for, or would that just be an insanely harsh ride? I would like to keep the teeth in my head. Maybe there's a middle ground here? Low front, high rear?

davidad

I recently came across some info telling me that hanging a bike upside down by it's wheels is BAD BAD. I have done this before, even hung it by one wheel! Suddenly i'm feeling quite ********. Feel free to scold me, I probably deserve it.
This is someone who dosen't know what he is talking about. Hang it by one wheel if you need to.
36 double-butted spokes is the way to go for your weight.
shimano 105 or Ultegra hubs will be as good as it gets if you maintain them.
Harris Cyclery has a good wheelset for sale that will suit your needs if you change your mind about building your own. The WE 632. https://sheldonbrown.com/harris/wheels/622.html
You do want the same number of spokes on the front. When braking the load transfers 80% of the weight to the front wheel.

WillJL

You'll want to follow the instructions on your chosen tire for inflation pressure. If you choose to run wider rims and wider tires (which I think has been universally recommended to you on this thread) then you'll likely end up pumping up to about 60-90 psi.

As for flange height, you shouldn't have to worry about this with modern components. Older hubs often had higher flanges to allow for shorter spokes. However, spoke-making technology is much better these days, and the necessity for a high-flanged hub may be a thing of the past.

Tires: I ride on 35mm Schwalbe Marathons on my everyday bike (Surly LHT). I've found that they last for 5-6k miles and I've NEVER had a flat. Since you're a big guy, you may also want to consider something larger than the 25mm tires you're currently on. I think you'll get a more forgiving ride, better traction, and more insurance for protecting your new wheel set.

In regards to hanging a bike by its wheels, I've done this my whole life without any problems. I'm not sure where you heard that it is bad for the wheels, but it sounds like dubious information. As long as the hook that you're hanging a wheel from isn't gouging the rim, or wedged directly between a nipple and the rim, you're fine. The forces exerted on a wheel by hanging are nothing compared to the forces exerted on them while you're riding. Any wheel that would be damaged in this way would be unfit for the road.

koamileli

Ahh ok. The flange thing I keep seeing with the fixters must be more of a fashion statement then? I get having stiff wheels for the track, but those guys riding around town on "tarck" bikes? The funny thing is they all look like they weigh 140 lbs, and their huge legs simply make lesser flange hubs explode under their massive torque! HA! Ok enough bashing, after all, I do own a fixed gear myself.

Would I be able to order a set of mix and match wheels from one of these sites if I was to decide to have them built? Like Shimano 105 hubs, DT double butted spokes, brass nipples, Mavic A319 rims