Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-20-10, 02:13 PM   #1
blinky
senior member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Bikes: Litespeed Tuscany w/Campy;Specialized Hybrid
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Noise Under Load at 29/39 Campy

get some chain,jockey,sprocket noise goin up slight incline in saddle at 29/39 ( 10s) - anybody have any thoughts - don't get it at 21/39 - is there too little tolerance between jockey,chain,& sprocket at the extreme 29/39 combo ? campy design flaw when they went to 10s cluster ? and now there's an 11s - Shimano has a screw I believe that allows you to back of the rear deraileur -not so with Campy !

any experience or thoughts appreciated !!!!!!!!


blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-10, 02:48 PM   #2
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,948
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Take a look at the RD and cassette when in the 39/29. I suspect that the upper pulley is touching the sprocket through the chain. There should be more than a link (about 1") of free chain between the RD pulley and sprocket so they're isolated from each other and the RD pulley is leading the chain onto the sprocket.

Newer (since 2001) campy derailleurs don't have a "B" screw on the upper body to control the RD height, instead there are springs in both the upper and lower body and height is controlled by balancing the tension between them using the worm gear screw on the idler cage. Work by small changes until you see that you're heading in the right and adjust until you achieve pulley cassette clearance.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-10, 03:30 PM   #3
tanguy frame
Senior Member
 
tanguy frame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Portland, OR metro area
Bikes:
Posts: 976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Worm gear screw on the idler cage? Where is that? Is it on the Campy Chorus 10 sp?
tanguy frame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-10, 04:10 PM   #4
cranky old road
Let your bike be the tool
 
cranky old road's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NC/SC border
Bikes: '66 Raleigh Carlton, '70 Ron Cooper, '95 Bianchi CD'I, Zonal Frame with Xenon gruppo, Carbon Frame with Record Gruppo, Columbia Twosome, Terry Classic, Bianchi SX, Gravity SS/FG
Posts: 820
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanguy frame View Post
Worm gear screw on the idler cage? Where is that? Is it on the Campy Chorus 10 sp?
http://www.campagnolo.com/repository...-10s-03-08.pdf
Page 24 screw A
cranky old road is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-10, 04:20 PM   #5
DaveSSS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Bikes: Two LOOK 585s, one KG461
Posts: 4,987
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Back the screw out all the way. You'll feel it disengage, then turn it back in about 1 turn. I assume you're using the proper medium cage RD, not a short cage?
DaveSSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-10, 04:44 PM   #6
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,948
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanguy frame View Post
Worm gear screw on the idler cage? Where is that? Is it on the Campy Chorus 10 sp?
attached to the idler cage, at the lower body. It engages a pinion gear that just peeks out from the base of the body, via a worm gear (hidden).
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-10, 05:13 PM   #7
tanguy frame
Senior Member
 
tanguy frame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Portland, OR metro area
Bikes:
Posts: 976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
DaveSSS,
I am using the cage that came with the bike which was built using Chorus 12-25. Do I need to switch cages when I go to 11-25? How do I tell which cage I have?
tanguy frame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-10, 05:22 PM   #8
cranky old road
Let your bike be the tool
 
cranky old road's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NC/SC border
Bikes: '66 Raleigh Carlton, '70 Ron Cooper, '95 Bianchi CD'I, Zonal Frame with Xenon gruppo, Carbon Frame with Record Gruppo, Columbia Twosome, Terry Classic, Bianchi SX, Gravity SS/FG
Posts: 820
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Your original post indicates a 29 tooth largest cog rather than 25
cranky old road is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 04:36 AM   #9
blinky
senior member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Bikes: Litespeed Tuscany w/Campy;Specialized Hybrid
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Take a look at the RD and cassette when in the 39/29. I suspect that the upper pulley is touching the sprocket through the chain. There should be more than a link (about 1") of free chain between the RD pulley and sprocket so they're isolated from each other and the RD pulley is leading the chain onto the sprocket.

Newer (since 2001) campy derailleurs don't have a "B" screw on the upper body to control the RD height, instead there are springs in both the upper and lower body and height is controlled by balancing the tension between them using the worm gear screw on the idler cage. Work by small changes until you see that you're heading in the right and adjust until you achieve pulley cassette clearance.
it's a 2003 Chorus RD - there are the 2 throw screws & the "page 24 screw A" referenced by Cranky - know I need a medium cage - how do you tell the cage size - is it by number of teeth on the pulley wheels ?
blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 04:40 AM   #10
blinky
senior member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Bikes: Litespeed Tuscany w/Campy;Specialized Hybrid
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cranky old road View Post
Your original post indicates a 29 tooth largest cog rather than 25
it is 29 - Tanguy jumped in - but his question is good - mine is a 2003 Chorus - suppose to be medium cage RD to accomodate the 29 - but how do you tell the cage size - is it by teeth on pulley wheels ?????
blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 04:45 AM   #11
blinky
senior member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Bikes: Litespeed Tuscany w/Campy;Specialized Hybrid
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
attached to the idler cage, at the lower body. It engages a pinion gear that just peeks out from the base of the body, via a worm gear (hidden).
it's a 2003 Chorus RD - my local mechanic told me that screw adjusts a spring ?? is that right ?? does anyone know what that screw does ? the only other adjusting screws that are there are for the side to side throw .
blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 04:49 AM   #12
blinky
senior member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Bikes: Litespeed Tuscany w/Campy;Specialized Hybrid
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Take a look at the RD and cassette when in the 39/29. I suspect that the upper pulley is touching the sprocket through the chain. There should be more than a link (about 1") of free chain between the RD pulley and sprocket so they're isolated from each other and the RD pulley is leading the chain onto the sprocket.

Newer (since 2001) campy derailleurs don't have a "B" screw on the upper body to control the RD height, instead there are springs in both the upper and lower body and height is controlled by balancing the tension between them using the worm gear screw on the idler cage. Work by small changes until you see that you're heading in the right and adjust until you achieve pulley cassette clearance.
good tip - my local mechanic fiddled with that screw for a short while and then just said I'd have to just live with the noise - I'll try what you've suggested myself - thanks !!!
blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 04:51 AM   #13
blinky
senior member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Bikes: Litespeed Tuscany w/Campy;Specialized Hybrid
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks

you've all provided some great tips - thanks for your time - and keep the tips coming if you think of any more .
blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 06:31 AM   #14
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,948
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky View Post
it's a 2003 Chorus RD - my local mechanic told me that screw adjusts a spring ?? is that right ?? does anyone know what that screw does ? the only other adjusting screws that are there are for the side to side throw .
The screw adjusts the tension of the lower body spring. As I said in the first post, there are springs in both the upper and lower body, and adjusting the tension in the lower one changed the balance and angle the RD sits at in any gear. Tightening the lower spring raises the tension of the idler cage, tightening the chain and pulling the RD forward, and therefore higher.

You therefore want to loosen it bringing the RD lower. BTW- there's a limit to how far you can go, beyond that the only help is a longer chain which would have the same effect. With a wide range cassette you want the longest chain for which the RD can take up the slack on the small/small combination. This is Campy's preferred way to measure chains for all setups, but unfortunately many mechanics prefer to cut a chain based on the shortest chain that will loop the bib/big combination with an inch to spare.

As a practical matter, the chain needs to pass both tests, and if there's adequate RD capacity, the mechanic has some degree of choice in the matter. With a short cage - measuring 55mm between pulleys on centers - you probably do not have enough capacity for 53/39 with a 13-29 cassette. A longer cage won't help much with the height, so I suggest you consider going with a longer chain if you need to, and understand that you will not be able to use the 39t with the smaller cassette sprockets.

Or depending on what you need as a high gear, consider replacing the 53t with something smaller like a 50t or a 48t. 48/13 is a decent high gear for most people not racing and a smaller outer chainring may improve the range for your purposes, if you're rarely using your highest gears now.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 06:34 AM   #15
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,948
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky View Post
it is 29 - Tanguy jumped in - but his question is good - mine is a 2003 Chorus - suppose to be medium cage RD to accomodate the 29 - but how do you tell the cage size - is it by teeth on pulley wheels ?????
Cage size is determined by the distance between the pulleys. Measure with a ruler from center to center of the pulley mounting screws. Short = 55mm, medium = 74mm. Note that cage length only affects chain take up capacity, but the rest of the RD is identical so it doesn't directly affect pulley height which is determined by idler cage tension and chain length.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 07:01 AM   #16
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 28,917
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Cage size is determined by the distance between the pulleys. Measure with a ruler from center to center of the pulley mounting screws. Short = 55mm, medium = 74mm. Note that cage length only affects chain take up capacity, but the rest of the RD is identical so it doesn't directly affect pulley height which is determined by idler cage tension and chain length.
Just for information's sake, at least through 2006, Campy also made "long cage" rear derailleurs which measure 90 mm between the pulley mounting screws. They were intended for use with their triple cranks and 13x26 or 13x29 10-speed cassettes.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 07:34 AM   #17
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,948
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Just for information's sake, at least through 2006, Campy also made "long cage" rear derailleurs which measure 90 mm between the pulley mounting screws. They were intended for use with their triple cranks and 13x26 or 13x29 10-speed cassettes.
They also made them earlier when they offered the racing triple cranks for 9s. Either way it's something that would be useful in western Pennsylvania.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 09:13 AM   #18
blinky
senior member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Bikes: Litespeed Tuscany w/Campy;Specialized Hybrid
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
The screw adjusts the tension of the lower body spring. As I said in the first post, there are springs in both the upper and lower body, and adjusting the tension in the lower one changed the balance and angle the RD sits at in any gear. Tightening the lower spring raises the tension of the idler cage, tightening the chain and pulling the RD forward, and therefore higher.

You therefore want to loosen it bringing the RD lower. BTW- there's a limit to how far you can go, beyond that the only help is a longer chain which would have the same effect. With a wide range cassette you want the longest chain for which the RD can take up the slack on the small/small combination. This is Campy's preferred way to measure chains for all setups, but unfortunately many mechanics prefer to cut a chain based on the shortest chain that will loop the bib/big combination with an inch to spare.

As a practical matter, the chain needs to pass both tests, and if there's adequate RD capacity, the mechanic has some degree of choice in the matter. With a short cage - measuring 55mm between pulleys on centers - you probably do not have enough capacity for 53/39 with a 13-29 cassette. A longer cage won't help much with the height, so I suggest you consider going with a longer chain if you need to, and understand that you will not be able to use the 39t with the smaller cassette sprockets.

Or depending on what you need as a high gear, consider replacing the 53t with something smaller like a 50t or a 48t. 48/13 is a decent high gear for most people not racing and a smaller outer chainring may improve the range for your purposes, if you're rarely using your highest gears now.
I understand the longer chain - for the second option are you recommending a cluster with a smaller large cog, maybe 13-26 Campy and then also a smaller inner chainring ?
blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 10:11 AM   #19
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,948
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky View Post
I understand the longer chain - for the second option are you recommending a cluster with a smaller large cog, maybe 13-26 Campy and then also a smaller inner chainring ?
Either or both, according to your gearing needs. Your 55mm short cage RD is rated take up 27t of chain wrap. Sometimes that can be fudged to 28 or 29. If you have 39/53 with a 13-29 cassette that's 30t. Changing to 39-50t gets it back to 27t. If you want the low end, consider giving up some high end, if you can live happily with 39-26, you can switch the cassette. Another option is to replace the 39t with a 42t which saves the three teeth, with 4229 producing a lower gear than 39-26.

In your shoes, I'd look first to changing a chainring, since that should cost less than either a cassette or derailleur. Pull out a gear chart, and consider what's best for you based on your riding conditions.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 12:35 PM   #20
tanguy frame
Senior Member
 
tanguy frame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Portland, OR metro area
Bikes:
Posts: 976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just measured and I have a short cage, 55mm. My gearing is 34-50 and 11-25. That looks like 30t chain wrap.
Previously I ran 12-25, resulting in 29t chain wrap. Does 1t really make that much difference? Would moving to a medium cage help?
My chain length is set by running large cog to large chainring plus 1 inch. I could add a link (next time I change chains).

I played with the worm screw and I can modify the angle of the RD, but it doesn't appreciably change the distance between the idler wheel and the cassette.
tanguy frame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 01:25 PM   #21
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,948
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
1mm probably doesn't make a difference unless you were at the absolute limit before. It's an easy test, the chain must loop the 2 biggest with an inch to spare. If you are over capacity the RD might not take up all the slack on the small/small combination, but you probably don't ride crossed anyway.

Note, the reason the chain must safely loop the bib/big even if you don't plan to use it is because if you space out and accidentally shift into a combination for which the chain is too short, the result is either, a destroyed RD, bent axle, damaged chainring, or rear dropout, or some combination of more than one of these.

If the 11-25 34/50 is working for you stay with it, it's nice reasonable wide gearing.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-10, 05:05 PM   #22
tanguy frame
Senior Member
 
tanguy frame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Portland, OR metro area
Bikes:
Posts: 976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm good. I adjusted away the majority of the noise in the 50/21 and 50/23. I rarely ride 50/23, and never cross chain at the extremes. Some minor cable tension adjustment helped too - making sure the jockey wheels were absolutely centered under the cogs in the 23T position.

Thanks for all the tips!
tanguy frame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-10, 01:40 PM   #23
blinky
senior member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Bikes: Litespeed Tuscany w/Campy;Specialized Hybrid
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanguy frame View Post
I'm good. I adjusted away the majority of the noise in the 50/21 and 50/23. I rarely ride 50/23, and never cross chain at the extremes. Some minor cable tension adjustment helped too - making sure the jockey wheels were absolutely centered under the cogs in the 23T position.

Thanks for all the tips!
tanguy seems to be good for now - I had the original question and still have some questions - hope someone can help - it's a 2003 Campy Chorus RD with the medium cage - roughly 73mm - 53/39 crank & 13-29 cluster - noise on 39/29 combo - tried adjusting the worm gear screw on the idler cage - didn't help - also longer chain wasn't the answer - could the RD be worn out ? - should I think about a compact crank at 50/34 with a 12-27 cluster ?
blinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-10, 12:31 PM   #24
tanguy frame
Senior Member
 
tanguy frame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Portland, OR metro area
Bikes:
Posts: 976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Is it possible your 29 T gear is worn? Did you put a new chain on?
Of all the things I tried, the most important was cable tension (doh!) and getting the jockey wheels properly oriented (doh!).
Maybe your RD limit screw is pushed in too far (or pulled out too far) and your chain doesn't line up exactly with the center of the 29T cog?

You may like to experiment on the stand (carefully) with limit screw position +/- 1/4 turn increments until it gets better or worse, you get the drill.
tanguy frame is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:01 PM.