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  1. #1
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
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    Trying to decide on spoke lengths

    Lacing an EN521 from Mavic to a DT-SWISS 370 SL 6-bolt rear with a 3x pattern.

    So, 258.70mm and 258.20mm are the actual theorized measurement with a 12mm nipple(according to the calculator.) The calculator recommends the 32 spokes should be cut to 258. That is great, but the spokes i'm getting come with a 14mm nipple which the calculator tells me works out to 16@257mm and 16@256mm. I can either chose to order 36@258mm or 36@256mm.

    Should I get both lengths? Is the one mm going to make a difference? In which direction is it better to come up "short"?

  2. #2
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    What ERD are you using? It should be 532mm.

    With 12mm nipples I get 257.43 and 256.99...I've actually measured these hubs - DT keeps rounding up their flange diameters...instead of giving them as-is.

    With that above Mavic ERD - you end up at or a thread above the screw driver flat.

    Using 257mm and 256mm with 14mm nipples should be okay...


    Sucks not having your own spoke machine doesn't it?


    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  3. #3
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    What ERD are you using? It should be 532mm.

    With 12mm nipples I get 257.43 and 256.99...I've actually measured these hubs - DT keeps rounding up their flange diameters...instead of giving them as-is.

    With that above Mavic ERD - you end up at or a thread above the screw driver flat.

    Using 257mm and 256mm with 14mm nipples should be okay...


    Sucks not having your own spoke machine doesn't it?


    =8-)
    Gah, yes... well i am not in possession of the rim... ERD 532mm(257.3 and 256.7) is out there on a few sites but, dt's site offers me an ERD of 535mm which was (258.7 and 258.2) - all figures are with DT's flange numbers.

    I could get 257mm cut from some 258's but that is an expensive proposition.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Lacing an EN521 from Mavic to a DT-SWISS 370 SL 6-bolt rear with a 3x pattern.

    So, 258.70mm and 258.20mm are the actual theorized measurement with a 12mm nipple(according to the calculator.) The calculator recommends the 32 spokes should be cut to 258. That is great, but the spokes i'm getting come with a 14mm nipple which the calculator tells me works out to 16@257mm and 16@256mm. I can either chose to order 36@258mm or 36@256mm.

    Should I get both lengths? Is the one mm going to make a difference? In which direction is it better to come up "short"?
    I assume you have been using th DT Swiss online calculator? That spoke calculator has some serious errors in its components database, especially regarding Mavic rims. I believe the problem is that Mavic can't be bothered publishing rim ERD's but instead publishes something called "nipple seat diameter" (or something similar) which isn't the same as ERD.

    Using another ERD as "mrrabbit" suggest is probably wise. I would round down agressively; it is much better to undershoot the spoke length with several mm than overshooting with just one mm.
    Using "mrrabbit"'s figures for a 12 mm nipple (257.43 and 256.99 mm) I would first subract 1 mm for using 14 mm DT Swiss nipples and then round down.
    256 mm spokes (on both sides) would be fine, but 254 mm would work fine too, and is probably the "safest" option.

    --
    Regards

  5. #5
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    Using Damon Rinard's spoke calc I get 258.7 an 258.2.
    It shows an erd of 535.

  6. #6
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Mavic's ERD aims for the screw driver flat of the nipple - and my experience when done tensioning is that I get exactly that or one thread past.

    Of course I have a spoke machine - so if the measurement is 265.67 I cut 265.50. You can do that with a spoke machine.

    I think what a lot of people do is that they think Mavic has only measured to the rim seat - and go ahead and do that "+3" thingy that a lot of folks like to quote not realizing that Mavic has already done that. So you end up with an ERD that aims for the top of the nipple without realizing it.

    If all measurements are exact - it'll work with 12mm nipples. But if all other measurements are off - it had better be off with a short bias or else you are having to take the wheel apart and start over.

    The real problem here is DT...they keep rounding up flange diameters instead of reporting them as-is. They also keep measuring to the outside of flanges like Shimano and Campy instead of to the center of flanges. Add those two problems areas together and it adds up to 1-2mm of error.

    Use another spoke calculator - Rinard's or mine for example:

    http://www.mrrabbit.net/wheelsbyflemingapplications.php

    Grab the spreadsheet - see DT 370s w/ Classic specs near the bottom of the DT section....you'll see what I mean when you compare my actual measurements against what DT shows when you select the same hub inside their calculator.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  7. #7
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
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    532mm "Spoke support diamater" is the number from Mavic's site. Perhaps 535mm is a traditional ERD as put forth by DT(Yes I used their calculator for hub measurements) or just an outdated figure? I'm going to try and work the wheel with 256mm(going off 532mm ERD)... if I can't lace to satisfaction with 256mm on both sides i'll just have to purchase 16 more spokes, get some cut or likely buy some shorter nipples(If this is the case I would of been into this anyways, but it does cost more time this way)

    Thanks for your help!

  8. #8
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
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    I switched the rim to DT Swiss's ex500... erd 540, spoke length 258mm w/ 14mm nipples - it seems okay.

    I'm wondering about lacing this wheel correctly as there seems to be no left/right eyelet pattern, so I am unsure where to place the key spoke on the drive-side.
    Last edited by electrik; 11-12-10 at 06:49 PM. Reason: spoke length

  9. #9
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    For me...

    1. Drive side facing down...
    2. Drop one drive side spoke in...
    3. That spoke goes in the second hole to the left of the valve stem.
    4. Twist hub to the left or counter-clockwise...

    ...I eventually end up with outside pulling spokes when the wheel is done...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  10. #10
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    For me...

    1. Drive side facing down...
    2. Drop one drive side spoke in...
    3. That spoke goes in the second hole to the left of the valve stem.
    4. Twist hub to the left or counter-clockwise...

    ...I eventually end up with outside pulling spokes when the wheel is done...

    =8-)
    So it's possible for the eyelets to run down the centre?

    Drive side of the hub? From what I gather the key spoke, is a trailing spoke which runs inside the flange so I would drop the first spoke in from the drive-side facing me. Why two eyelets to the left of the valve? What i've done from the drive side view is put the key-spoke so it will run on the inside of the drive-side flange then i inserted the spoke to the first eyelet left of the valve hole(this rim appears not to have an offset eyelet pattern) and twist the hub counter-clockwise... perhaps wrong way to turn because it means the trailing spoke is now a leading spoke?
    Last edited by electrik; 11-12-10 at 07:04 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Typically, even if you can't determine whether there's drilling offset or not - my method nails 99.99% of traditional rims anyway. Last time I saw a rim with the drilling offset going the other way was with a Sun Metal rim from the late 80s. I.e., starting the drive side down with a spoke drop two hole to the left of the valve stem with a counter-clockwise twist covers most rims today.

    =8-)

    Just like ERD is "effective" rim diameter that worked for one person's GIVEN setup - one person's key spoke isn't exactly another person's key spoke.

    As I noted already, my first spoke approach eventually results in outside pulling spokes when I'm done lacing the wheel.

    If you want you can have the hub drive side down, bring a spoke into the drive side flange from below and hit the second hole to the left of the valve stem with a counter-clockwise twist. This will start you off on a inside pulling spoke style wheel.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  12. #12
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    Typically, even if you can't determine whether there's drilling offset or not - my method nails 99.99% of traditional rims anyway. Last time I saw a rim with the drilling offset going the other way was with a Sun Metal rim from the late 80s. I.e., starting the drive side down with a spoke drop two hole to the left of the valve stem with a counter-clockwise twist covers most rims today.

    =8-)

    Just like ERD is "effective" rim diameter that worked for one person's GIVEN setup - one person's key spoke isn't exactly another person's key spoke.

    As I noted already, my first spoke approach eventually results in outside pulling spokes when I'm done lacing the wheel.

    If you want you can have the hub drive side down, bring a spoke into the drive side flange from below and hit the second hole to the left of the valve stem with a counter-clockwise twist. This will start you off on a inside pulling spoke style wheel.

    =8-)
    Ah, well if this rim has left/right i can't figure it out... maybe it's 1mm or so, very hard to decide.

    I laced the wheel again using Sheldon brown's technique, which I suppose is ending up with the inside spokes pulling or trailing. Sheldon's method however describes starting on the eyelet immediately left(drive side down) to the valve-stem. A pattern I am familiar with.

    Does an outside pulling pattern refer to the trailing spokes leaving the hub on the outside or to something else perhaps?

    I tried to lace using the key-spoke method you described, but the snag comes with the extra eyelet to the immediate left(drive-side down) of the valve-hole. Since this opposing spoke would cause issues with fitting the pump-head, the two spokes immediately left and right of the valve hole need to run parallel, yet with your method it seems the left-side spoke would prevent using the pump from the left? Anyway, i was stumped when i started in on the non-drive side.

  13. #13
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    What I do extended:

    1. Hub drive side down...
    2. Drop one spoke down into drive side flange...
    3. Rim is flat and valve stem is away from me...
    4. Spoke goes into second hole left of valve stem...
    5. Hub is twisted counter-clockwise...
    6. I finish lacing that side of the hub...(I do most basic wheels one side at a time...easier and easier to learn - BUT - has limitations in terms of flexibility...)

    7. Find spoke that is on drive side but directly to the right of valve stem hole and locate its hub drive-side hole.
    8. Find hole on non-drive side that is in same location but slightly to the right of that drive side hole.
    9. Drop in spoke in that hole - splay the drive side spokes to get through...that spoke ends up second hole to right of valve stem.
    10. Finish lacing that side of the wheel...

    End up with a outside pulling spoke wheel...

    Understand that later on when using 12g/13g spokes, asymetrical flange diameter hubs, or hubs wth very tight dimensions such as low profile disc brake hubs - one side at a time lacing runs into a wall.

    At some point - you will have to learn how to lace a wheel 1/2 drive, 1/2 non-drive, other 1/2 drive and other 1/2 non-drive at a time.

    For now, just get this wheel done.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  14. #14
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    What I do extended:

    1. Hub drive side down...
    2. Drop one spoke down into drive side flange...
    3. Rim is flat and valve stem is away from me...
    4. Spoke goes into second hole left of valve stem...
    5. Hub is twisted counter-clockwise...
    6. I finish lacing that side of the hub...(I do most basic wheels one side at a time...easier and easier to learn - BUT - has limitations in terms of flexibility...)

    7. Find spoke that is on drive side but directly to the right of valve stem hole and locate its hub drive-side hole.
    8. Find hole on non-drive side that is in same location but slightly to the right of that drive side hole.
    9. Drop in spoke in that hole - splay the drive side spokes to get through...that spoke ends up second hole to right of valve stem.
    10. Finish lacing that side of the wheel...

    End up with a outside pulling spoke wheel...

    Understand that later on when using 12g/13g spokes, asymetrical flange diameter hubs, or hubs wth very tight dimensions such as low profile disc brake hubs - one side at a time lacing runs into a wall.

    At some point - you will have to learn how to lace a wheel 1/2 drive, 1/2 non-drive, other 1/2 drive and other 1/2 non-drive at a time.

    For now, just get this wheel done.

    =8-)
    Thanks - I think i've got it somewhat figured out now... This hub has asymmetrical flanges so i'm going to go 1/2 once i figure out what goes where. It is too much bending to fit the leading spokes on the non-drive side otherwise.

    About point 2) ... you send those first 8 pulling spokes outbound on the drive flange?

  15. #15
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Dropping 'em down makes 'em out...counter-clockwise twist of hub makes 'em pulling...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  16. #16
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    Gerd Schraner"s book "The Art of Wheelbuilding" has a good section on spoking your wheel. On the rear I normally have the outbound spokes on both sides as pulling spokes. I think that if you have a disc brake the spoking pattern on the left side should be different.
    I haven't had a chance to build a wheel for discs.
    I would go with the DT spoke lengths and get 14mm nipples. 258mm double butted on both sides should be fine.

  17. #17
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidad View Post
    Gerd Schraner"s book "The Art of Wheelbuilding" has a good section on spoking your wheel. On the rear I normally have the outbound spokes on both sides as pulling spokes. I think that if you have a disc brake the spoking pattern on the left side should be different.
    I haven't had a chance to build a wheel for discs.
    I would go with the DT spoke lengths and get 14mm nipples. 258mm double butted on both sides should be fine.
    Hey, davidad.. i did get DT competition spokes @258mm w/14mm and they work great. Currently trying to think about how much dish i want on the wheel, since the new rim is of a deeper profile it seems like if i center the rim the drive side will be too weak laterally... the spoke angle is less oblique. The hub is a disc brake. I'm going to lace outside pulling on both sides as that should help... so i've read here and online elsewhere.

  18. #18
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    There's no such thing as "how much dish". Either the wheel is dished (centered between the ends of the locknuts) or it isn't. What you are describing is the result of differing flange offsets - and there is not much you can do about it other than using OC rims. Bottom line is your wheel must be dished - or else you will have alignment problems while riding.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

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