Why did we move from 27" to 700c?
#76
I have senior moments...
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Woodside, CA
Posts: 2,151
Bikes: Many
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I knew what you meant, but by perpetuating these "standard" sizes instead of looking at specifically what you're buying just spoils poor consumers and causes grief when these dummies get unhappy. F*ck 'em! People really should use their brains when consuming...no?
#77
I have senior moments...
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Woodside, CA
Posts: 2,151
Bikes: Many
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Never materialized for roadies? Love my 650b options on mountain bike frames/forks that can go that way but not 700c style. My Beckler (650b Heckler) is a great bike, no mods needed either. OTOH left 27" behind with my '70 Schwinn Super Sport.
#78
Senior Member
I've run more than a few supposed ISO experts out of a room by asking them if they're an expert, why the **** can't they pronounce the name properly.
#79
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Sheldon Brown tried that a few years ago with the 650B (ISO 584) wheels. Apparently it never gained any serious audience and I haven't seen anything about it in quite a while.
This is hardly new and, if anything, there are now fewer commercially available sizes to deal with than in the past.
Go to Sheldon Brown's web site and look up the article on "Tire Sizing". He lists 31(!) different ISO standard rim sizes of which 29 are bicycle related. Add various tire widths available in many of these rim diameters and the number of tire models gets to be monumental.
This is hardly new and, if anything, there are now fewer commercially available sizes to deal with than in the past.
Go to Sheldon Brown's web site and look up the article on "Tire Sizing". He lists 31(!) different ISO standard rim sizes of which 29 are bicycle related. Add various tire widths available in many of these rim diameters and the number of tire models gets to be monumental.
Yep ! A couple of years ago, I bought a matching pair of bikes. The tire size was NOT even listed on Sheldon's site !!! KUDOS to Schwalbe for helping me out with a nice set !!
#80
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
Posts: 12,258
Bikes: Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
doesn't EA3, 650A, 26x1-1/8, or ISO 590 already fill that gap? why would you need a 603mm wheel?
grant peterson might have been influential in the past, but some of his ideas are downright wacky
__________________
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
#81
Senior Member
One of the reasons a 603mm diameter rim might be useful is that it would allow a wider tire and a fender to be used on many existing frames. Some of us have come to appreciate the comfort of wider tires and fenders. It might not be a wacky idea at all, but since the rim and tire combination doesn't exist we won't know.
The reason the project never materialized was that they couldn't find a tire manufacturer to make the tire.
There was a recent Bicycle Quarterly test comparing the performance of various wheels of different rim diameter and tires of various widths. Their conclusion was that smaller diameter wheels are less stable than large diameter wheels. Wider diameter tires help make smaller diameter wheels more stable, but make larger diameter wheels too stable. There is an interesting discussion of the various forces involved in the bicycle wheel. I'm not sure that their tests are perfect, but at least they have tried to make real world tests of various rims and tires.
The test was in the Spring 2010 issue, vol.8 no.3. I guess you have to go to the paper copy as they don't make their issues available on the net.
The reason the project never materialized was that they couldn't find a tire manufacturer to make the tire.
There was a recent Bicycle Quarterly test comparing the performance of various wheels of different rim diameter and tires of various widths. Their conclusion was that smaller diameter wheels are less stable than large diameter wheels. Wider diameter tires help make smaller diameter wheels more stable, but make larger diameter wheels too stable. There is an interesting discussion of the various forces involved in the bicycle wheel. I'm not sure that their tests are perfect, but at least they have tried to make real world tests of various rims and tires.
The test was in the Spring 2010 issue, vol.8 no.3. I guess you have to go to the paper copy as they don't make their issues available on the net.
#82
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1074 Post(s)
Liked 295 Times
in
222 Posts
There was a recent Bicycle Quarterly test comparing the performance of various wheels of different rim diameter and tires of various widths. Their conclusion was that smaller diameter wheels are less stable than large diameter wheels. Wider diameter tires help make smaller diameter wheels more stable, but make larger diameter wheels too stable.
#83
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
Posts: 12,258
Bikes: Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
One of the reasons a 603mm diameter rim might be useful is that it would allow a wider tire and a fender to be used on many existing frames. Some of us have come to appreciate the comfort of wider tires and fenders. It might not be a wacky idea at all, but since the rim and tire combination doesn't exist we won't know.
The reason the project never materialized was that they couldn't find a tire manufacturer to make the tire.
There was a recent Bicycle Quarterly test comparing the performance of various wheels of different rim diameter and tires of various widths. Their conclusion was that smaller diameter wheels are less stable than large diameter wheels. Wider diameter tires help make smaller diameter wheels more stable, but make larger diameter wheels too stable. There is an interesting discussion of the various forces involved in the bicycle wheel. I'm not sure that their tests are perfect, but at least they have tried to make real world tests of various rims and tires.
The test was in the Spring 2010 issue, vol.8 no.3. I guess you have to go to the paper copy as they don't make their issues available on the net.
The reason the project never materialized was that they couldn't find a tire manufacturer to make the tire.
There was a recent Bicycle Quarterly test comparing the performance of various wheels of different rim diameter and tires of various widths. Their conclusion was that smaller diameter wheels are less stable than large diameter wheels. Wider diameter tires help make smaller diameter wheels more stable, but make larger diameter wheels too stable. There is an interesting discussion of the various forces involved in the bicycle wheel. I'm not sure that their tests are perfect, but at least they have tried to make real world tests of various rims and tires.
The test was in the Spring 2010 issue, vol.8 no.3. I guess you have to go to the paper copy as they don't make their issues available on the net.
But you realize that 650B and 650A both fit in 700c frames AND offer an even fatter tire to be fitted while keeping the total diameter the same.
it's not just the wheel, there's the tire also.
__________________
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
#84
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Older British club and sport bicycles were fitted with a 597mm wheel and a 26 by 1 1/4 tyre... Dunlop was the chief supplier of these and rims were available in chromed steel, stainless, and aluminum (uncommon). Dunlop stopped making tyres in this size after they realized they made more money selling car tyres and for a time it was very hard to get a decent, high performance tyre in this size.
In the early fifties you could buy some English bikes with 27inch wheels although the 26 by 1 1/4 was the most popular and by 1956 - 57 the 27 inch wheel had replaced the 26 by 1 1/4 wheel as standard.
The British also used the 28 inch over sized rim and tyre . . .
In the early fifties you could buy some English bikes with 27inch wheels although the 26 by 1 1/4 was the most popular and by 1956 - 57 the 27 inch wheel had replaced the 26 by 1 1/4 wheel as standard.
The British also used the 28 inch over sized rim and tyre . . .
But, sixty fiver, please illuminate us, if you can, as to WHY the 27" size took over in the UK? I'm not sure from your post if it was simply because Dunlop quit the bike market or something else.
Thanks, dude.
#85
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Grid Reference, SK
Posts: 3,768
Bikes: I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
One of the reasons a 603mm diameter rim might be useful is that it would allow a wider tire and a fender to be used on many existing frames. Some of us have come to appreciate the comfort of wider tires and fenders. It might not be a wacky idea at all, but since the rim and tire combination doesn't exist we won't know.
Existing wheel sizes have steps less than 1" apart between 500 and 635mm bead seat diameter, and the actual performance advantage of any one size over another is really only on paper - if three riders are racing on well set up high quality bikes, one with 700C/29", one on 6500b, and one on 26", the stronger rider will win the race - not the rider on the 'better wheel size.'
Side note: I just looked at the Gary Fisher bikes website and they are booasting that for the first time ever, a rider on a 29" (700C) wheeled mountain bike is leading the world cup standings... since these bikes have been available for years, if they actually gave you an advantage then this wouuld have happened before now. Such is the nature of elite cycling - the best riders are fairly well matched in competition, so any advantage will make itself known very quickly. I could bewrong, but this is how it seems to me.
#86
Senior Member
Yeah, and the top riders also pretty much ride what ever their sponsors give them as well. Specification differences between the bikes are more about that than purely technical advantages.
#87
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,095 Times
in
741 Posts
As far as the top sponsored MTB racers go, most of them have a choice between 26" and 29" wheels as their bike supplier makes both so it is personal preference and the rider's assessment as to which will work better on a given course. It's the same with full suspension vs. hardtails and sometimes a full suspension bike is chosen despite its weight penalty.
Last edited by HillRider; 09-01-10 at 07:27 PM. Reason: mistake in wheel size numbers
#88
Senior Member
#89
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,095 Times
in
741 Posts
#90
Senior Member
#91
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
I remember seeing a British road/commuter bike with 28" wheels and rod activated brakes. That was an interesting sight.
But, sixty fiver, please illuminate us, if you can, as to WHY the 27" size took over in the UK? I'm not sure from your post if it was simply because Dunlop quit the bike market or something else.
Thanks, dude.
But, sixty fiver, please illuminate us, if you can, as to WHY the 27" size took over in the UK? I'm not sure from your post if it was simply because Dunlop quit the bike market or something else.
Thanks, dude.
The 630 rim could be fitted with a narrower higher pressure tyre and also may have been another one of those attempts by the British and the Americans to have a standard that was not French.
#92
Senior Member
[QUOTE=hiero;113
As for why 27" happened in the first place (which is another excellent question!), didn't we get that size from the English bicycle imports? I need to go check what Sheldon has to say about that. Or there might be an old post in the rec.bicycles.misc archives.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why 27' clincher wheels began in Britain, but one of the reasons they took hold in America, was that British bicycle imports had a foot in the door early. After WW II, British bicycle manufacturers had a preferential tarrif over other countries. Therefore Raliegh had a dealer network already established when the bike boom of the sixties came along. Their ten speed bikes had 27" wheels, and pretty soon 27' tires became common and easy to get. When French and Italian bies were imported, they had 27" wheels on models that would have 700C wheels at home. Then the Japanese started sending bikes built to English norms.
Maybe if French manufacturers had got here before the British, 27" wheels wouldn't have become dominent, and 650B would be a lot more common.
As for why 27" happened in the first place (which is another excellent question!), didn't we get that size from the English bicycle imports? I need to go check what Sheldon has to say about that. Or there might be an old post in the rec.bicycles.misc archives.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why 27' clincher wheels began in Britain, but one of the reasons they took hold in America, was that British bicycle imports had a foot in the door early. After WW II, British bicycle manufacturers had a preferential tarrif over other countries. Therefore Raliegh had a dealer network already established when the bike boom of the sixties came along. Their ten speed bikes had 27" wheels, and pretty soon 27' tires became common and easy to get. When French and Italian bies were imported, they had 27" wheels on models that would have 700C wheels at home. Then the Japanese started sending bikes built to English norms.
Maybe if French manufacturers had got here before the British, 27" wheels wouldn't have become dominent, and 650B would be a lot more common.
#93
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,935
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 3,367 Times
in
1,916 Posts
When I built my loaded touring frame in 1981 I deliberately designed it to use the then-fading 27" wheel size so I could find replace tires or even wheels easily, even at the only place that in dozens of miles that stood a chance of having bike stuff -- like a hardware store in Coldwell ON. You could only find 700C tires and rims at upscale bike shops in fairly large towns and I preferred touring in near-wilderness areas.
#94
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 1,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In the 80s, all of my rider friends switched to 700c rims, simply because the Japanese and French rims stayed true much longer than their American counterparts. You still had to true your rims all the damn time, but the foreign aluminum rims lasted a lot longer than the mostly steel ones made in the U.S.
The same goes for cotter-pin cranks and the associated bottom brackets with sleeved bearings. They made really good cotter-pin cranks too, but most were junk. And the sleeved bearings in those bottom brackets were constantly needing to be re-packed with grease, having the bearings replaced entirely, etc. Both were killed off by campy and Japanese campy knock-offs with the square taper crank design, and bottom brackets that used a cone bearing set up.
That is how it was where I lived, anyway. Cycling was not that big there, so I'm sure there was more to it on a national/global level.
The same goes for cotter-pin cranks and the associated bottom brackets with sleeved bearings. They made really good cotter-pin cranks too, but most were junk. And the sleeved bearings in those bottom brackets were constantly needing to be re-packed with grease, having the bearings replaced entirely, etc. Both were killed off by campy and Japanese campy knock-offs with the square taper crank design, and bottom brackets that used a cone bearing set up.
That is how it was where I lived, anyway. Cycling was not that big there, so I'm sure there was more to it on a national/global level.
#95
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,697
Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
No surprise that a short (reportedly in more ways than one) fat guy wanted to go to a measurement system with little-bitty length units and big mass units. 168cm and 90 kilos (estimated from his pants size) sounds so much less short and fat than 5ft 6in and just under 200lbs.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Monstermash
Classic & Vintage
87
05-03-19 11:42 AM