Jancouver

First of all, I know nothing about wheel building so please be kind to my stupidity.

Just got the spoke tension meter from Park Tools and while I was messing around with one of my wheels I noticed that the tension on some spokes was way off. Most of the spokes were around 25 but few were way off 20-29.

I wouldnt say that the wheel was necessarily out of true by any mean (from just spinning the wheel while mounted on bike since I do not have truing stand).

Anyway, would/should an even spoke tension guarantee a true wheel? I mean to some level. Lets say, if I set all spokes to 25 would that give me an OK wheel or do I really need the wheel stand and some clever wheel building book to keep my wheels in a good shape?

FBinNY 

In a perfect world where real things conformed to theory, Yes, alignment and uniform tension would go hand in hand (discounting the variation needed for dished wheels). In theory, any imbalance it tension would cause a deflection in the rim.

In practice, it's possible to build a misaligned wheel, especially one with some hop, with even tension. Conversely, it's possible for an aligned wheel to have uneven tension. Rims aren't perfect, and offer some resistance to the pull of the spokes, so some tension unevenness may be needed to overcome that. Also the rigidity of the rim makes it possible to have overcome the effects of a loose spoke here and there, by extra tension on the neighbors.

Ideally, you want both good alignment and even tension, but realistically, settle for the best alignment, within a narrow spectrum of tension variation.

531phile 

no. I tried it myself. doesn't work.

Jeff Wills

+1. I started building wheels before tension meters became widely available. Even with that, they worked fine. Keep it true without any huge variations in tension and it'll be fine.

vredstein

Nope. On most of my builds, if I insisted on even tension I'd have an unacceptably untrue wheel, especially around the seam. Along with the mentioned rim imperfections, you'll get variations in how each spoke sits in and exits the hub, and variations in how crossing spoke affects the tension of each other.

dabac

...assuming also that the builder has managed to turn all the nipples the equal amount of turns... and that all the spokes came from the correct box...

FBinNY 

Not necessarily. The spokes could all be different lengths within the range allowed by the nipple thread, but proper alignment and uniform tension would compensate for the variation. They'd all be different heights in the nipple, but that's why they use threads in the first place.

dabac

Huh? I think you are misreading me. Of course paying attention and adjusting along the way can compensate.

But if you were to build a wheel on "automatic", first merely counting turns and then relying on a tensiometer, then a few missed/extra turns will throw the end result off - as would if the batch of spokes contained some one size shorter/longer.

Replacing rims on some "experienced" touring wheels had me wondering once, until I discovered that earlier repairs had left the wheel with three different spoke lengths in use. Built up fine once I realized that the easiest reference wasn't useful any more.

furballi

Modern SS spokes are very strong, so the limit is the design of the rim. Start out with a round rim and spokes of proper length. Gradually increase tension by 1/4 turn until it becomes difficult to maintain radial and axial tolerances at +/-0.001". At this point, back-off the tension by 1/4 to 1/2 turn. If you start out with a round rim (+/- 1 mm), then the spoke tension should not vary by more than 10% if you true the wheel to +/-0.001" when new.

Occasionally, you may come across a rim that requires more tension on 2 to 3 spokes. That's also normal and does not compromise durability.

Chombi

I recently did a cursory check on the many LBSs I go to regularly if they use spoke tension meters when the build or repair wheels. I was suprised that 100% of them said no (even the older shops with what I consder good, very experienced mechanics). One shop even admitted that the spoke tension meter on their tool rack had not been touched in years and was now there just for show. Almost all of them told me they go by plucking/tone matching the spokes during tensioning to be close to even tension, but I suspect, with all the variables invovled that they don't get that close at all....so noooo, I don't think even tensioning = true wheels.
I built a few wheels already myself already without the use of a spoke tension meter and they have so far been riding true, without any problems.

Chombi

hiero

I like vredstein's answer - simple and correct. Check out Jobst Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel". The rim will have variations in strength and density at the seam and at the valve hole. These must be compensated for, along with any untrueness that the mfr built into the rim. Spokes should be generally close in tension, and variations should be gradual over a number of spokes for the strongest build. Eg: like 21-22-23-24-25-24-23-22-21, not 21-21-21-21-29-21-21-21.

I'm not surprised that tensionometers don't get used much. Jobst describes a manual technique that will build a wheel to the limit of the rim's capacity. I'd think that using a tensionometer would mean you would have to know in advance what tension to use. Unless you are using the same hubs, rims, and spokes, every time, the optimum tension will change. When I build or true a wheel, I compare spoke tension by ye-olde "pluck the spoke" method (ping! ping! pong! -- oops, give that one a half turn!). It's easy, never fails, and accurate.

hiero

Oops, I missed this one when reading the thread - furball is describing the same technique Brandt covers in "The Bicycle Wheel". When the maximum tension is reached, the rim will begin to "taco" in 4 smooth waves -- . At that point you back it off.

cny-bikeman

The variation of 20% (20 vs. 25) is a bit much, may indicate the rim is physically bent, or if pairs of spokes read low, impact damage (flat spot). The 29 is 16% high and certainly pushing the limit of acceptable. I take it the wheel is round as well as true?

Chombi

After trying it out early so many times, I now only really start counting turns on the nipples when I am doing my final tensioning and truing touchups. Doing it too early just wastes time and does not get you to a good true base before tensioning. Contrary to most beliefs, Wheel building is more of an art mostly guided by feel and not numbers.

Chombi

vredstein

I would say that I find a tension meter useful in turning a big jump in tension in a small, concentrated area into a gradual, tapered variation.

dscheidt

Tension is determined by the rim in use. There are quite a number of rims (deep section, mulit-box) that you can't build the way Brandt suggests; the spokes will pull through their sockets before the rim deforms. Spokes and rims should be capable of supporting whatever the rim will bear. (There are probably exceptions to that among the super lightweight racing stuff, but I consider most of that broken by design, so no surprise there.)

Al1943

Even in a perfect world with perfect rims, hubs, and spokes it is still possible to build a wheel that is out-of-round with even spoke tension on all spokes.

When using the Park tension meter be sure to release the tool onto the spokes slowly and smoothly. A quick release will cause an elastic rebound and spurious measurements. 25 to 29 sound like awfully big numbers.

Hydrated

The best way to improve your skill as a wheel builder is to lock that stupid tension meter in a drawer and never look at it again. Well... maybe "never" is a little drastic... but don't look at it very often.

Mechanics were building wheels long before tension meters became available. And these wheels didn't usually self destruct every 10 miles. These guys didn't need a tension meter, and neither do you. The rise of the tension meter shows that many people try to distill wheel building skills down to a cookbook process. "Tighten spoke A to a tension of X and then tighten spoke C to a tension of spoke A +/- 10%"

Bah. Building wheels isn't an exact formulaic process... it's more of a learned skill that takes some time and patience to pick up.

Your fingers and your brain are the only measurement tools that you need to build great wheels. That and a little practice.

Now as to that tension meter. It does get useful if you're building exotic wheels that use low spoke counts or fragile materials. Exact tensions are important and help you avoid catastrophic failures in those cases. (I think that using carbon fiber in spokes and rims is nuts. But that's another thread. )

Start off by building a few sets of "normal" wheels. Alloy rims... 32 or 36 spoke wheels... brass nipples... and no tension meter. New wheel builders often tend to lean on that tension meter and obsess over getting the meter's numbers right. Unnecessary.

Save the 12 spoke wheels and carbon spokes for later. Learn to build good basic wheels first.

Chombi

One shortcut I found to building front wheels is after finishing lacing all the spokes go around the whole wheel using just your fingers to turn the nipples opposite from each other on the wheel to finger tight. This will get you to a good initial true base with minimal vertical, and sometimes lateral runout. It also avoids that condition where you have a few spokes that seem to be much looser than all the others when you start tensioning which makes thing feel all screwed up early in the tensioning phase of the build. Tried counting turns and threads before as some suggest in wheelbuilding internet sites and blogs, but it never really works out for me as the normal variables in the wheel parts (I suspect, mostly in the spokes and rims) seem to throw it all out the window.
The method above can still get you started with your rear wheel build quicker, but you do have to add in the dishing phase of the build with the tensioning.

Chombi

Al1943

At ~$60 a Park spoke tension meter is an excellent investment if you are going to build wheels, repair wheels, or buy new wheels. A tension meter can help you avoid broken spokes caused by insufficient tension, a common problem on the non-drive side of multi-geared bikes. Also a common problem on new machine built wheels, regardless of the number of spokes.

bellweatherman

This is the hard part of wheelbuilding. That is, to build a true wheel with even tension all around. If you have your wheel tensioned up and it is true, but the tension is way out of whack on some spokes, it will be really difficult, at least from my own experience, to get the wheel both true and evenly tensioned.

The best method is to do it right early on in the initial stages of wheelbuilding. So, you basically true and tension a little bit at a time to being the wheel up to full trueness and tension. This is why, IMO, handbuilt wheels are better than most machine built wheels. Machines add tension very quickly, and then add trueness. Whereas with a handbuilt wheel, the builder can adjust for trueness and tension slowly if needed. The newer machine built wheels though are very, very good and I think the trueness/tensioning process must've been refined in those machines a bit better than the machine built wheels of decades ago.

Hydrated

Yes it can... but so can your fingers and ears. A tension meter can be helpful, but I just hate it when people think that you MUST have a tension meter in order to build a good wheel. I build all of my own wheels and I've never used a meter on them. But I also ride 32 or 36 spoke wheels built with non-exotic rims. If I was fast enough for it to matter, I might use the fragile stuff to save that 30 grams per wheel. And building ultra lightweight wheels would make a meter even more important.

So when building your average wheel, don't fret so much about measuring tension values.

Retro Grouch 

At last - the voice of moderation.

I built my first wheel around 40 years ago. It was a 36 spoke front wheel. Knowing what I do today it wasn't a very good job but it still lasted for a lot of years.

Several years ago an acquaintence sought me out (on the recommendation of another bike mechanic) to rebuild a 16 spoke rear tandem wheel. So far as I know, it's still going strong today.

I didn't need a tension meter for the first one. I wouldn't even have considered attempting the second one without a tension meter. I know that I can build an adequate 32 spoke wheel without a tension meter. Since I own one, however, I use it and I think that I do a little better job with it.

bradtx

Jancouver, My mountain bike has a radially spoked front wheel. With no crossing spokes I thought that the tension would be uniform, but they aren't.

Brad

davidad

Proper use of a tensiometer is the best way to build a wheel for most of us. Mavic reccomends a max tension of 110kg on their rims and the best way to get that is with the meter.
That people are able to get good results without one is testmony to the simplisity of building a spoked wheel.