Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    10,085
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    What causes chain link damage during installation?

    Can someone tell me the reason why the outer plate occasionally gets damaged when when securing a chain pin? I replaced it with new link but would prefer to avoid it rather than fix it.

    My utter lack of finesse ?
    A crummy chain tool ?
    A cheesy chain ?
    Other?

    - Auchen

  2. #2
    Spoked to Death phidauex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    My Bikes
    Salsa La Cruz w/ Alfine Internal 8-speed, Scattante Ultegra roadie, Maserati fixie conversion
    Posts
    1,334
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Looks to me like it was poorly aligned in the chain tool - either because the chain tool is crappy (there is a wide variety in tool quality, and "multitool" chain tools can be particularly bad), you were working in an awkward position (with the chain trying to fight its way out of the chain tool while setting the pin), or your chain wasn't layed in the "primary" position on the chain tool - the position furthest from the crank of the tool, up against the main anvil, if that makes sense. You can place the chain in the tool in a position closer to the crank of the tool, but that position is for loosening tight chains, not pressing pins in or out of the chain.

    Chain removal: http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=25
    Tight link repair: http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=53

    -Sam

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY
    My Bikes
    too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
    Posts
    20,605
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    +1, it was misalignment of the pin during installation. The end of the pin is square, so if it hits the side of the hole it doesn't self align the way a pointed pin would.

    Next time, as you press the pin try to feel the change in pressure as it comes to the far plate, then make sure the chain is aligned before pressing farther. It helps to not have to fight tension, so consider dropping the chain off the inner ring onto the BB shell. Now use touch to judge if the pin is entering the hole, or pressing on the side of it. Sometimes you have to kinda of flex things to help it find the hole and slide in.

    Since installing a chain usually means you've removed one, use the old chain for practice until you can tell by feel alone whether the pin is sliding in correctly or hanging up.


    BTW- important-, Most modern chains cannot be securely closed with a chain tool. They depend on the rivets being peened over the plates to keep from spreading and breaking during hard shifts. So if this is a 7s (some), 8s, 9s or 10s chain, you should only be cutting it with the chain tool, and closing it with a connector link, or special pin a la Campy and Shimano. If in doubt read the chains package enclosure for info about splicing.
    Last edited by FBinNY; 09-02-10 at 03:20 PM.
    FB
    Chain-L site

    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  4. #4
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    10,085
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Thanks Sam -
    I was using the primary anvil. (In fact I never knew what that other position was for on the chain tool -(I always freed stiff links by hand).

    I used a Park mini tool to secure the chain. This was a new chain, so I was approaching it from the correct side. The tool is a little small for my big mitts so maybe it does boil down to my lack of finesse with it. Would a shop-quality tool really make any difference?
    - Auchen

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    7,819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yes and no, why? because u can have the best tools ever and if you are not careful or if you don't know how to make the tool work for you, it is useless. The problem u got was a user problem with the tools and looks like brute force works better for you. No, based in the picture that was not a problem in the equipment (the chain).

    Just in case the darn pin is not suppose to go out 100% U take the pin off from one side and slide it almost to the limit at the other side using the tool, so you could take the inner chain link twisting it a little bit. If you take the pin out, and so far in the picture the pin is out, so i assume you got the ingenuity of taking the pin out w/o thinking 1st, the pin wont get IN in the right position again even with the pro tools, the pin is not suppose to come off the link in 1st place.

    I do have the usual park tool and have never had a problem like that, and long time ago i had a chinese junk that was awefull ugly and bad, but i was careful, darn toll still works fine for me after like 25 years (if i cant find the park one). Even the cheappo Chinese one never gotten the pin broken that is the usual problem with these tools, my cheappy park one no problems either, so why spend 100 bucks in a pro one?

    Would be better for you to practice how to use the tools instead

    My utter lack of finesse ? <--- YES
    A crummy chain tool ? <--- NO
    A cheesy chain ? NO
    Other? <-- think on what are u doing 1st.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,401
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As FBNY mentioned, if it's a chain with a connector link (appears to be KMC) then you should use the link. I don't think you mentioned if it had a link or not.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Pearland, Texas
    My Bikes
    Cannondale, Trek, Raleigh, Santana
    Posts
    5,471
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    auchencrow, As the important comments have been made I'll add a minor one. Connector links can be frustrating at best to properly connect, for me more often than not, but once finished they work very well. Reusing an old pin now-a-days is only really acceptable if it is a roadside repair of a broken chain and no connector link/special pin is available.

    Brad

  8. #8
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    10,085
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    I've installed dozens (or maybe even hundreds of chains), either with a cheap chain tool or the Park mini, and I've managed to damage a few plates with with either tool. I have never broken a pin on any tool however. (Knock on wood).

    Also, I always drape the chain on the BB shell when I'm removing or installing a chain to keep tension off it.
    I never remove a chain link pin completely, not even on the few offal links at the end of a new chain.
    I never use connector links because I have never encountered on on any chain.

    So based on all this, and what I've read here already, I have to concede that the problem is me , not the chain, and not the tool. I'll try to be more attentive in the future.


    FBinNY, and Bradtx --- I understand that the references to "peened over" rivets and caveats about not reinstalling them is germane to modern (7 or 8-speed) chains only. (If so, it's a non issue for me, since I don't work on any newer bikes.)


    Thanks to all for your insights! I can always count on getting the straight story from the Bike Mechanics!
    - Auchen

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY
    My Bikes
    too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
    Posts
    20,605
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post

    So based on all this, and what I've read here already, I have to concede that the problem is me , not the chain, and not the tool. I'll try to be more attentive in the future
    take the advice I gave you earlier and use an old chain to practice with, both correctly aligned and intentionally misaligned, so you get a feel for the difference.
    FB
    Chain-L site

    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  10. #10
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    1) That KMC chain should not be reusing pins, and they do not use pins for installation, no 3/32 kmc derailleur chain is suited for pin reuse.
    2) You cannot reuse pins on any 7/8/9/10/11 speed chain of any other brand.


    Reuse pins and watch the lawsuits roll in. Chain breakage under load is a safety critical issue.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  11. #11
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    10,085
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    1) That KMC chain should not be reusing pins, and they do not use pins for installation.....
    ???
    I don't understand your comment.
    These 5-spd KMC chains ONLY use pins for installation. (-What else is there?)
    - Auchen

  12. #12
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Pinole, CA, USA
    Posts
    15,218
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't see a five speed chain listed on the KMC website and it appears that connector links are available for all of their chains. I'm using 7/8 speed chains with connector links on my vintage 5/6 speed bikes, except for one vintage Regina chain on a PX10.

  13. #13
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Austin
    My Bikes
    Too many to count
    Posts
    2,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That's a tough one. I could be wrong, but I too think it might be that you didn't have the chain tool aligned perfectly when you were doing the pin installation. If you have to use excessive force to push the pin in, that might indicate that the links aren't aligned perfectly. And then, you would drive the pin in at an angle that messes up the hole like in your picture.
    Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.

    Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.

    01101010101010001010

  14. #14
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    10,085
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
    I don't see a five speed chain listed on the KMC website and it appears that connector links are available for all of their chains. I'm using 7/8 speed chains with connector links on my vintage 5/6 speed bikes, except for one vintage Regina chain on a PX10.
    Hi GB !
    These are the chains I generally use (or ones just like it). They are dimensionally the same as any old 5spd at 3/32 x 1/2.
    They don't come with connector links.
    Last edited by auchencrow; 09-02-10 at 10:39 PM.
    - Auchen

  15. #15
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    10,085
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bellweatherman View Post
    ... I could be wrong, but I too think it might be that you didn't have the chain tool aligned perfectly .....
    I think you are right, bellweatherman. That's about the only root cause we could not discount!
    - Auchen

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    231
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I use a cheap performancebike house brand chain tool and just go slowly. No problems here. Make sure you are absolutely focused on the tactile feedback you get as the pin makes its way through the chain, otherwise yeah, you will probably damage the chain (I've also broken chain tools like this, with particularly tough single speed chains).

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    They say you learn something new every day ! Over many, many years of working on bikes, including chains, I never knew the 'primary' position was to be used for closing the chain. I always understood it was only for removing stiff links. I remember having to do a roadside repair on a chain with a pair of pliers, a nail and a rock for a hammer! It worked, probably 'cos of desperation, because years later in my garage and no chain tool ( all sorts of other tools) I couldn't repair a chain until I was able to get a chain tool. Ah, youth- where did it go?

  18. #18
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Pinole, CA, USA
    Posts
    15,218
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post
    Hi GB !
    These are the chains I generally use (or ones just like it). They are dimensionally the same as any old 5spd at 3/32 x 1/2.
    They don't come with connector links.
    All derailer chains are 3/32" X 1/2".

    They may not come with connector links at that price point, but you can get them.

    I've collected a lot of bike tools, but I'm still using a Park mini chain tool because it works.
    Last edited by Grand Bois; 09-03-10 at 06:59 AM.

  19. #19
    Spoked to Death phidauex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    My Bikes
    Salsa La Cruz w/ Alfine Internal 8-speed, Scattante Ultegra roadie, Maserati fixie conversion
    Posts
    1,334
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You don't need a fancy chain tool, but a quality one helps. The chain tool on my Crank Bros multitool is darn near impossible to use properly. I've broken TWO cheap Spin Doctor chain tools, and now own a very nice Pedros, but my Park Mini has been the best value - small enough to be portable, but large enough to be able to actually put a little torque on. It is also very reasonably priced. I've had mine for 10 years now. I use the Park Mini whenever I'm not in my main shop where the Pedros is.

    As to replacing pins... If I were a professional working with customers, I would always use the approved reconnector pin, or the approved master link (never reusing them), but for my own bikes, I don't mind repressing a standard pin, as long as it doesn't damage the chain. I've never had a chain break due to a repressed pin. KMC chains for 7 and 8sp are pretty thick and heavy duty, and I think there is plenty of meat there to retain the pin properly. The only time I get nervous is the super-light weight narrow chains for 10sp, and some 9sp. Repairability is one advantage that cheaper heavier chains do have. So anyway - I think it is fine to reconnect a pin, as long as you get a good seat on it, and verify that you have even penetration on both sides of the link, and properly loosen the tight link after pressing. It is worth knowing that it may not be an approved method by the chain company lawyers, and keep that in mind if you are working on a customer's bike.

    -Sam

  20. #20
    Pro Paper Plane Pilot wunderkind's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,624
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This would solve all chain re-connecting headaches.


    Vancouver Modern Portrait Photography

    Zenfolio.com membership discount code: UBV-HJY-SCY

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Gaseous Cloud around Uranus
    Posts
    3,339
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Put one on your best bike,get up a good cadence,shift and enjoy the ride.It's going to be your last one for awhile....I don't think it's going to make it thru the derailers.
    Last edited by Booger1; 09-03-10 at 11:42 AM.
    Everything should be as simple as possible...But not more so.---Albert Einstein

  22. #22
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Pinole, CA, USA
    Posts
    15,218
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That's not for derailer chains. What you want is a KMC "Missing Link".

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •