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  1. #1
    Senior Member flim's Avatar
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    Working order removing derailleurs, chainrings, crankset, etc.

    I have been bussy reading a lot of posts in this section of the forum already, but I couldn't really find an answer for my problem. I just got a Koga Miyata Gent's Touring (1978) from my dad (he bought it new back then) and I am slowly taking it a part for cleaning, polishing and so on. I have been working my way from the front to the back, but I am kind of stuck.

    Click the pictures for a larger version.

    This is how the bike is standing in my room at the moment:


    I want to remove the crankset, chainrings, chain, rear wheel, gear shifters, derailleurs, basicly everything that is still attached to the frame to clean everything. What is my working order? I must say I am not the bicycle expert, so I don't know if it will be very problematic if I remove the derailleurs... Is it? If not, my guess was to remove the gear shifters, the front derailleur, crankset with chainrings. Then take out the rearwheel, remove the rear derailleur. Clean it all and put it back in reverse order...

    Just some more pictures of the set-up to give you guys an idea about the complexity (click for bigger)...






    Maybe this is a really basic question, but I don't want to screw things up. Mainly because this bike is now somewhat like a heritage and because I don't have spareparts . Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Pull the wheel out , need a socket wrench , 14 or 15mm a crank arm extractor[specialty bike tool] to remove the Crank.

    need a headset wrench 1/8" thin 32mm to take the fork apart and replace and re grease the headset bearings
    to put it together again you need 2 32mm wrenches , but the one to grip the top nut can be adjustable..

    got some prior experience in overhauling bicycles ? If not reading up will be useful..

    If you dont have tools you must choose between hiring the work out, and buying the tools.

  3. #3
    The Left Coast, USA FrenchFit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flim View Post
    I have been bussy reading a lot of posts in this section of the forum already, but I couldn't really find an answer for my problem. I just got a Koga Miyata Gent's Touring (1978) from my dad (he bought it new back then) and I am slowly taking it a part for cleaning, polishing and so on. I have been working my way from the front to the back, but I am kind of stuck.

    Click the pictures for a larger version.

    This is how the bike is standing in my room at the moment:


    I want to remove the crankset, chainrings, chain, rear wheel, gear shifters, derailleurs, basicly everything that is still attached to the frame to clean everything. What is my working order? I must say I am not the bicycle expert, so I don't know if it will be very problematic if I remove the derailleurs... Is it? If not, my guess was to remove the gear shifters, the front derailleur, crankset with chainrings. Then take out the rearwheel, remove the rear derailleur. Clean it all and put it back in reverse order...

    Just some more pictures of the set-up to give you guys an idea about the complexity (click for bigger)...






    Maybe this is a really basic question, but I don't want to screw things up. Mainly because this bike is now somewhat like a heritage and because I don't have spareparts . Thanks in advance!
    What you are talking about doing is less than a 1/2hrs effort if you have experience and the tools. If you've never taken off a crankset, and you don' t have the right tools, you might mess up your bike. Same for the freewheel. I think you might make an arrangement with a knowledgable friend or a bike shop, have them go through the process along with you. There is nothing hard about what you propose doing, if you have the tools, but you don't cut your teeth on a nice bike.
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  4. #4
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    +1
    As mechanics work on just one part all the time there is nothing magic about an order of disassembly. The order is less important than doing the work properly and knowing what needs to be done - the "etc" part of the job. You need to know not only how to clean and polish but how to properly disassemble, inspect, replace parts, lubricate and reassemble. Lots of guidance for each procedure you want to do on Park, Sheldon and other sites.

  5. #5
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    flim, Unless you have other bikes that you plan to take care of, have a bike shop perform an overhaul. The tool expense alone easily will exceed what the bike shop will charge.

    Brad

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    Quote Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
    +1
    As mechanics work on just one part all the time there is nothing magic about an order of disassembly. The order is less important than doing the work properly and knowing what needs to be done - the "etc" part of the job. You need to know not only how to clean and polish but how to properly disassemble, inspect, replace parts, lubricate and reassemble. Lots of guidance for each procedure you want to do on Park, Sheldon and other sites.
    for me order of assembly/disassembly is important in working efficiently. for the op it does not matter much but i would remove the chain just to get it out of the way.

  7. #7
    Senior Member flim's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the replies! I am not completely unfamiliar with bikes, but I have never taken a part a crankset or a headset. I'll just write a quick reply for everyone...

    @fietsbob: I prefer to do it all myself. Just because I am eager to learn and like mechanics My dad has a lot of tools so maybe he can help me out with the right equipment. Other wise I'll just have to buy some things. And I wasn't planning on taking out the balhead or fork. Due to the fact I have never done that I don't think it needs a lot of cleaning or new grease (the bike has been standing in a garage for at least 20 years). Aaargh, I am in a twist to "take it apart, learn about it and be able to regrease it" or "chose the safe route and leave it as it is"!

    @Frenchfit: Hehe, I kind of assumed that already with a big IF "you have experience and the tools". As for the crank: Is it possible to just remove the crankarms and leave all the bearings and crankstuff in the BB? I am also not planning on taking apart the freewheel or taking of the casette... I might just read and search a bit more before I dive in

    @cny-bikeman: I am not unfamiliar with taking apart bikes or complex parts (did it with my Batavus City Moped twice) but I never took apart hubs, freewheels or anything like that. Reading and studying is never a bad thing so I might just do that and tackle these parts one by one...

    @bradtx: Like I said Brad, I know a little about taking bikes apart and I have a big toolbix already... Plus I don't mind paying for the tools I need, because that way I learn about it too

    @reptilesz: I always lay stuff out, number it, take pictures of the original setup etc. Bag 'em, tag 'em so to say The chain is a bit problematic, because it has none of these quick links... They are all chinged (is that the right English term for it?) togehter... When I use a chain splitter isn't that bad for the chain? I mean wouldnt it make the hole wider, because you push the pin that was chinged on the outside through that tight hole. It was chinged in the first place to NOT come out... I hope you understand what I mean, but would like to hear your opinion!

    Right, to sum all things up: I will be doing some more studying and reading on the net. Ask my dad for some tools and help and then tackle these problems one by one. Autumn is moving in here and I want to have thise bike ready in April so I do have some time

  8. #8
    Senior Member flim's Avatar
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    Well, took the first hirdle today! Took apart the headset and I must say it was easier than I thought!

    Cleaned and degreased everything, but now my question is; Should the bearings be replaced or just degrease 'em and apply some new grease? The bearings are intact, no broken or cracked case (is that what it is called?) and all the balls are there... I will post a picture of a cleaned up bearing later on.

    Click the images for a bigger version.








    One cleaned bearing:


    Last edited by flim; 09-03-10 at 04:22 AM. Reason: Added picture of bearing

  9. #9
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    On that old a bike I would assume the ball bearings should be replaced - the headset will operate and wear better. It's not just the balls you need to inspect. I would recommend using loose ball bearings - the grease will hold them in if you use a good brand and assemble properly. You should also be checking the cups and cones for even wear and lack of pitting or other damage.

  10. #10
    Senior Member flim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
    On that old a bike I would assume the ball bearings should be replaced - the headset will operate and wear better. It's not just the balls you need to inspect. I would recommend using loose ball bearings - the grease will hold them in if you use a good brand and assemble properly. You should also be checking the cups and cones for even wear and lack of pitting or other damage.
    Have you seen the picture Bikeman? Also, my dad told me he only drove about 1500 km's with it... Since I want to keep this bike as original as possible I will re-use these old bearings The question is already answered, hehe. Thanks for your reply though! I am curious about using balls and grease only... Why is that better? Is it noticable?

  11. #11
    SE Wis dedhed's Avatar
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    '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400

  12. #12
    Senior Member flim's Avatar
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    I get the picture dedhed... I'll report back here when I have a real problem then I am off to my bike!

  13. #13
    Senior Member KDC1956's Avatar
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    Nice bicycle for sure hope you get it all set back up.It's not that hard to rebuild one or it's not to me.Working on it your self is a lot of fun and it will
    make you feel that much better when you get to ride it again.Can't wait to see it finish.

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    "@bradtx: Like I said Brad, I know a little about taking bikes apart and I have a big toolbix already... Plus I don't mind paying for the tools I need, because that way I learn about it too " --flim

    Excellant attitude.

    Brad

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by flim View Post
    Have you seen the picture Bikeman? Also, my dad told me he only drove about 1500 km's with it... Since I want to keep this bike as original as possible I will re-use these old bearings The question is already answered, hehe. Thanks for your reply though! I am curious about using balls and grease only... Why is that better? Is it noticable?
    Yes, I've seen the pic, and they don't look that great to me. New ball bearings have an absolute mirror finish. It's also extremely difficult to get all the grit/dirt out of the recesses of caged h/s bearings. With new ball bearings you are assured of a clean headset and 2-3 extra balls per bearing. 1500 km's may have been more than enough to justify new bearings, as it partly depends on how much grease they had (typically little) and riding conditions (sand, rain, etc.). In any case bearings are very inexpensive - I never reuse balls unless I'm on a tour and have to do an overhaul without access to them.

    As for OE, nobody else will care that the original bearings are there, except that if you were to ever resell the bike telling them the bearings were overhauled with loose balls and waterproof grease would make it more valuable.

  16. #16
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    flim sez: As for the crank: Is it possible to just remove the crankarms and leave all the bearings and crankstuff in the BB? I am also not planning on taking apart the freewheel or taking of the casette... I might just read and search a bit more before I dive in
    No need to remove derailers, unless you're going to be putzing about with the frame without a rear wheel in it for some time, then I'd go ahead and remove the rear derailer to prevent damage.

    If you're not going to muck about with the BB bearings or replace the cranks, then don't remove the cranks - there's no sense in doing so.

    Breaking the chain won't weaken it that much. I'd probably go ahead and get a new chain on there anyways, however. I like Sram 850s.
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    afraid of whales Mr IGH's Avatar
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    I re-use old bearings in cages all the time. I don't have any problem getting the old grease out of the cages, I use an old toothbrush. Old bearing have never caused me any issues in the last 40 years, I predict you'll be fine. Loose bearings in a headset or a bottom bracket is a royal pain in the behind, what's the point?

  18. #18
    Senior Member flim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
    I re-use old bearings in cages all the time. I don't have any problem getting the old grease out of the cages, I use an old toothbrush. Old bearing have never caused me any issues in the last 40 years, I predict you'll be fine. Loose bearings in a headset or a bottom bracket is a royal pain in the behind, what's the point?
    That is what I did too! Just for the hack of it I'll change over to loose balls though. Already bought them and it never hurtst to use new ones I guess Thanks for your input with 40 years experience, I'll keep that in mind!

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    To each his own. In part it depends on the level of equipment you are overhauling and how well you want the bearing to run and last. The OP's ball bearings look worn to me. If he wants the bike to last a very long time and the bearing surfaces have a nice smooth path worn in them then good quality (grade 100 or lower) new loose balls are a small price to pay.

    As for dealing with loose balls it's not a big deal with the proper technique. All one has to do is use a good quality grease that will hold them in, then assemble with the bike upside down. Balls go in each cup (fill, remove one) and one lowers the fork into the head tube - lower set of balls are then secured in place. Screw the top piece onto the fork until it is almost touching the balls. Pull the fork straight up so that the top bearing is together and continue screwing it till the headset is ready for adjustment.

  20. #20
    afraid of whales Mr IGH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
    ...The OP's ball bearings look worn to me....As for dealing with loose balls it's not a big deal with the proper technique....
    You claim to see worn-out bearings from those photos, that's a good joke! Loose bearings do nothing to make the bearing smoother or last longer. You've fallen for two of the stupider traditions expounded on these forums.

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    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    flim, I just happened to think, if you have a crank extractor and considering the age of the bike, I'd go ahead and pull the cranks and put them back on just to insure they're not seized on the BB spindle.
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  22. #22
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    Not sure that's a great idea... if the BB is working fine, you may be best off leaving the cranks alone. If in fact the cranks are seized on and you strip the extraction threads, you've munted it for no good reason. I guess it depends how badly you want to know whether the cranks will come off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
    Loose bearings do nothing to make the bearing smoother or last longer. You've fallen for two of the stupider traditions expounded on these forums.
    I wouldn't bother with loose balls myself, but I might if I was a big guy... more bearings simply have to be more durable. How isn't that the final word? As for smoothness, I've found caged bearings run smoother because the cages prevent the balls running into each other - there's significantly less friction between a ball and stationary cage than between a ball and its neighbour; where they meet the directions of motion are opposite. You can easily feel the difference if you compare the same assembly without grease; at some points during a rotation the loose balls feel smoother, but that goes out the window the second they collide (I have NFI why they should want to travel at different speeds, but it happens... unevenly distributed load, maybe).

    And as for wear, the bearings look fine to me. But that's not where I look first - cups and cones are where it's at. Any pits and they're toast. Some slight brinneling (little dents hammered into the races, usually appearing on the cone first) is normal for a well-used headset, and is no big deal as long as it remains slight. A good way to determine if your balls have had it is to drop them on a rag, wipe the grease off and look at the grease on the rag for the tell-tale sparkles of powdered plating. If the grease is sparkly and they still look round, you can use them in a pinch but don't expect them to run real smooth. No big deal for a headset, since it only has to be smooth enough for you to ride no-hands; you can usually get the play out of a shagged headset without making it too stiff as long as it isn't too far gone.

  23. #23
    Senior Member flim's Avatar
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    Well, I sure seem to have hit a nerve with the headset bearings Nice to read all the different approaches and I also found an old topic about in the archives (via Google: http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-386288.html). About the BB and the cranks. I don't have a crank puller and I just leave it all one (removed the chainrings for cleaning though). I need to get myself a chain splitter/cutter to remove and clean the chain properly.

    Thanks for al the advice and information about the pitting. The cups and cones look not worn out at all. No pitting what so ever and doing the ballpoint check I couldn't really find any defects. Also, the bike has been standing inside, dry (not warm, but still) for the last 20-25 years. Well, later this week I can get back to work on it. Thanks for all the input!

  24. #24
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    I won't comment on what order to work in that is as different as the bike and mechanic involved.

    I just want to say that is one great looking bike. I can't wait to see the finished product
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  25. #25
    Senior Member flim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    I won't comment on what order to work in that is as different as the bike and mechanic involved.

    I just want to say that is one great looking bike. I can't wait to see the finished product
    True, I already started on it. Just easy, step by step, piece for piece It sure is a beauty, you can thank my dad

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