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Am I tone deaf? "Spoke tensioning - One hit wonder"

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Am I tone deaf? "Spoke tensioning - One hit wonder"

Old 10-08-10, 08:05 AM
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Am I tone deaf? "Spoke tensioning - One hit wonder"

Holy cow, I may not be able to carry a tune, but I at least thought I had a good ear. I've gotten pretty skilled at truing my wheels so I thought the next logical step towards building my own wheels would be to try tensioning all of my spokes using the 'tone test' method.

Yikes!

When I spun the wheel on my truing stand, either I was drunk or my wheel was. So much for the tone test for tensioning spokes. Only thing musical with that outcome was that it looked like Stevie Wonder trued my wheel.

I'll be buying this now thank you very much. Thoughts?



https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...8_10000_200500

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Old 10-08-10, 09:39 AM
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I bought it--it's nice to be sure and not just guessing. Worth the $$ depends on how much use you plan on giving it. Mine just collects dust after building one new set of wheels and truing my other 4 sets. Realistically I will not need it again, since proper wheels do not go out of true with the moderate use I give them. But I like having it, just in case. (I'm a tool/gadget freak)
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Old 10-08-10, 09:45 AM
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Go right ahead,
But if you do hear the tones, and got them match and then the wheel is not true then here are some causes:
If it has radial run-out then it's a problem in tensioning the spokes, adjust radial run-out and it should be fine. (or the wheel has a permanent bend in it due to a kerb or something similar, but those are really easy to see)
If it does not have radial run-out , only side run-out when the spokes are tensioned equaly by tone or tool, then the rim has a permanent bend in it on lateral (that it's usually not so easy to see because the spokes keep it straight but adds tension in spokes in some places and lack of tension in other places) - the best thing to do is changing the rim or straighten the rim without spokes (cold set, or hot set, but better not mess heat treatment so better cold set but since it's aluminum that is rather difficult)
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Old 10-08-10, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ClarkinHawaii
I bought it--it's nice to be sure and not just guessing. Worth the $$ depends on how much use you plan on giving it. Mine just collects dust after building one new set of wheels and truing my other 4 sets. Realistically I will not need it again, since proper wheels do not go out of true with the moderate use I give them. But I like having it, just in case. (I'm a tool/gadget freak)
I figure now would be a good time with the 20% off one single item and free shipping for orders over $100 if I can squeeze my order up to that.
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Old 10-08-10, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Asi
Go right ahead,
But if you do hear the tones, and got them match and then the wheel is not true then here are some causes:
If it has radial run-out then it's a problem in tensioning the spokes, adjust radial run-out and it should be fine. (or the wheel has a permanent bend in it due to a kerb or something similar, but those are really easy to see)
If it does not have radial run-out , only side run-out when the spokes are tensioned equaly by tone or tool, then the rim has a permanent bend in it on lateral (that it's usually not so easy to see because the spokes keep it straight but adds tension in spokes in some places and lack of tension in other places) - the best thing to do is changing the rim or straighten the rim without spokes (cold set, or hot set, but better not mess heat treatment so better cold set but since it's aluminum that is rather difficult)
Eeeyeah... and I thought I was close to building my own wheels. I better get that book by Jobst Brandt that everyone recommends and do some more reading and then practicing.

In theory though, an evenly tensioned wheel should be perfectly straight given no other problems as stated above, right? I have heard that the tone test can be faulty and throw you off, so it'll be interesting seeing how having 'the right tool' potentially helps if that's the case here.
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Old 10-08-10, 11:05 AM
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It works well to get you the balanced tension you are looking for. Park publishes a cool spreadsheet that displays tension graphically and makes it easy to visually see what you need to do to get balance. You can download it here: https://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=173
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Old 10-08-10, 03:26 PM
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I have been using a Wheelsmith for years and it beats my tin ear. The human factor is a variable from day to day even if you have perfect pitch.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:37 PM
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Why does anyone expect a wheel to be true, just because the spokes have equal tension?
Try this: turn all the spokes on one half of the wheel five turns more than the ones on the other half, then tighten all the spokes evenly to the same tension. Is the wheel true? Of course not. Forget tension until the wheel is true, then gradually bring the tension up to the same on all of them.
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Old 10-08-10, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by davidad
I have been using a Wheelsmith for years and it beats my tin ear. The human factor is a variable from day to day even if you have perfect pitch.
If you have radial laced wheel or one with crossed spokes that don't touch, you can use a microphone plugged into a computer or the built in microphone in a laptop and a program for tuning a musical instrument to get the tone within a few Hertz.

If the spokes cross and touch you don't get a tone clear enough for the tuning program to pick up.

That said, I believe the best use of tone is to get the tension (tone) the same after you use a tension meter to get the tension where it should be. You can listen to the tone from a properly tensioned spoke and then get the others to match. Even a musically untalented person can discern differences in pitch quite accurately and it's faster, easier, and probably better for getting even tension than the meter. Testing with the meter occasionally keeps you in the right tone range.
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Old 10-08-10, 09:30 PM
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Park Tool is okay. Just remember not to read right away when clamping...use an underside finger to gently tap a couple times and then read. The Park Tool needs to settle down with each clamp to read right...else it reads too high.

I have the Wheelsmith tool as well...which reads accurately right away. Fast to work with as well. It's built to last.

The one area where the Park Tool has the Wheelsmith beat is resolution. But that's about it. The Park Tool looks and feels so flimsy construction-wise I bend over backwards not to drop it or drop heavy stuff on it. So it goes from its box to the wheel and back to its box.

Overall though...it works and the price is pretty decent. Go ahead and buy...

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Old 10-08-10, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sundance89
Eeeyeah... and I thought I was close to building my own wheels. I better get that book by Jobst Brandt that everyone recommends and do some more reading and then practicing.

In theory though, an evenly tensioned wheel should be perfectly straight given no other problems as stated above, right? I have heard that the tone test can be faulty and throw you off, so it'll be interesting seeing how having 'the right tool' potentially helps if that's the case here.
That's a good use for the tool. I have some 700c front wheels where tone is a good indicator of even tension. But I've built two different rear wheels using two different Shimano Nexus red band hubs, Wheelsmith DB14 spokes, and Mavic A319 rims. During both builds, for whatever reason, tone was not consistent. With some crossing spokes, the same tone would equate to the same tension. With other crossing spokes, the same tone would equate to unequal tension. With some crossing spokes, on spoke with a higher tone would be at the same tension as the one with a lower tone. This doesn't mean tone is useless. It just indicates it's not a 100% accurate gauge.
If you have no tension meter, tone would be your best gauge.
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Old 10-08-10, 11:28 PM
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Use the proper tool to get the right tension for the rim and spoke combination. To have a wheel "stand up" to long use with out constant adjusting you should get the right tension (usually at the top end of the range of tension recommended by the rim manufacturer). As you go up in tension the spokes tend to approach each other in tension and differences in roundness built into most rims will start to even out. Using sound to tune a wheel is an old builders tale that is meaningless in the real world. Buy the tool and learn to use it. Its a wheel not a harp.
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Old 10-09-10, 12:29 AM
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Just in case if the rim is not 100% right u won't be able to true the wheel if you use the tensioner to equal tension in all the spokes, in my experience the wheel will get as round the rim is, u can go up to some limits sometimes but when u have problems with the rim u cant use the tensioner that much, then is when the practice and experience will prevail. As somebody said, it is a wheel not an harp.
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Old 10-09-10, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Sundance89
Eeeyeah... and I thought I was close to building my own wheels. I better get that book by Jobst Brandt that everyone recommends and do some more reading and then practicing.

In theory though, an evenly tensioned wheel should be perfectly straight given no other problems as stated above, right? I have heard that the tone test can be faulty and throw you off, so it'll be interesting seeing how having 'the right tool' potentially helps if that's the case here.
Absolutely not. I see one person who finally mentioned this, but it's so important it warrants a second mention. Balanced tension DOES NOT correlate with a true wheel...even if the rim is perfectly straight and round. This is where the build quality comes in. It's also why many wheel builders will take brand new factory built wheels and de-tension and re-build them properly in order to get everything balanced and strong. Some corrections are far easier to make by starting from slack spokes than small adjustments.

If balanced tension was all that was required to build a strong/straight wheel than there would be a lot more "wheel experts" than there are. In reality, during the tensioning process you'll find that the two seem to almost work against each other. Balance the tension...Oh no, now it's out of true. Ok, lets true it up and recheck tension...uh oh, now it's not balanced. This is precisely why wheelbuilding is described as more of an "art" or a process of "finesse" than purely procedural science.

The tensioning process needs to happen evenly and slowly in order for the builder to catch and correct the little outlier spokes as they show up. This is because you can't rely (completely) on the perfect equality of the spoke's dimensions. Yes, you have to start at a fixed point, either by using a nipple driver that ejects itself at a fixed point, or with the "one or two threads exposed" trick. And although this is necessary, it doesn't do ALL of the balancing for you. You'll also find that in order to take your true wheel and balance the tension, some creativity and "mechanical glasses" are needed. It can be much more complex than simply "loosen left, tighten right." Sometimes all the spokes on one side are balanced, but your problem lies on the opposite side, with two or three same-side spokes being drastically different. Well you still need to get those spokes balanced without pulling that section of the wheel out of true. The more you do it, the easier it is to view the wheel as a 'system' and understand how minor adjustments can be made to correct these tension differences without destroying your true. It can definitely be intimidating, but if it doesn't challenge you, then it's not as fulfilling right? =)

I recently build up my first full wheelset. I'd done maybe 4 wheels previous but never done a matched set. I did the above mentioned "reset" three times I think on my rear wheel before getting it to where I wanted it. It seemed like the process would never end. I was actually a bit anxious about it, having spent so much money on the parts, and still not being able to get them built right. I may have been able to build it right with fewer start-overs, but the frustration would get to me and I would just loosen it all back up and start fresh. It was good practice and a few things finally clicked for me and I was able to get it both true and balanced to surprising accuracy. I've now been riding that wheel all season with some racing and lots of miles and many potholes...and haven't had to touch it yet. I even loaned it to a bigger and FAR stronger teammate for a P,1,2 race. I've been periodically checking it and it's still right where it started. =)

-Jeremy
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