Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-20-10, 08:22 AM   #1
rdyant
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Chicago
Bikes: 1983 Trek 620
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
broken frame

I have what I think is a 1983 Trek 620, which I bought from a friend about 1986. I love this bike and put on about 5,000 miles a year, mostly commuting in Chicago. This morning both seat stays cracked where they are welded to the seat tube. Is this repairable? If so, any idea where I can get it done (in or near Chicago or northern suburbs) and how much it would cost?
rdyant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 08:27 AM   #2
cycle_maven
Collector of Useless Info
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 1,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Very likely. But you might want to post in the framebuilder's forum, with pictures, since they would have a good idea of what you will need.
cycle_maven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 08:31 AM   #3
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 29,117
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
I assume the frame is brazed, not welded and it should be a fairly straightforward repair for a frame builder. However, the cost is uncertain and you will need at least a partial repaint. Whether the frame is worth repairing is up to you.

Call Lickton's or Chicagoland in Chicago as they should be able to supply the names of some local frame builders.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 09:39 AM   #4
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,782
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Yes, it's easily repairable but not necessarily cheap. RRB Cycles is one place to get an estimate.
JohnDThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 10:04 AM   #5
cyclist2000
Senior Member
 
cyclist2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Up
Bikes: Masi (retired), Giant TCR, Eisentraut, Jamis Aurora Elite, Zullo (trainer bike), Cannondale, 84 Stumpjumper, Waterford(N+1), Tern D8 (N+1), looking for a Ti frame
Posts: 3,128
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Didn't these frames come with lifetime warrenty? But that is for the original purchaser.
cyclist2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 11:05 AM   #6
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!
Posts: 29,117
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclist2000 View Post
Didn't these frames come with lifetime warrenty? But that is for the original purchaser.
Hmmm..... that's a possibility if the friend the OP bought it from has his original proof of purchase and would make the warranty claim for him.
HillRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 11:12 AM   #7
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,875
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 887 Post(s)
Ninety miles west of you is one of the best shops around for this kind of work. Visit Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI. They'll tell you what it'll cost and you can make a fix or replace decision, and if you choose to have the job done they'll turn it around pretty quickly. Best not to try to gt an estimate over the phone, toss the bike in a car and make the drive.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 11:37 AM   #8
BCRider
Senior Member
 
BCRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The 'Wack, BC, Canada
Bikes: Norco (2), Miyata, Canondale, Soma, Redline
Posts: 5,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
IF both stays went at the same time and they are definetly cracked apart instead of just pulling the stays out of the BB lug then I would suspect that the cause of the damage is internal rusting. Over that many years of regular riding water could easily have rusted away enough of the metal that the stays just got too thin and finally let go on you. If that is the case you will be able to gauge the amount of rust when you strip the parts out of the frame for any subsequent repair. At that point if the tubes seem very rusty and crusty on the inside around the BB area I suggest that it would be easier to just give the frame a Viking warrior's funeral and go frame shopping. On the other hand if the silver brazing joints just let go and the tubes slipped out of the BB lug then it would be an easy fix. You'd clearly see the brazed portion of the ends if this is the case versus a crack.

Buying a decent older mid grade CrMo frame that is in good shape would be FAR cheaper than having the tubes replaced. Or if it is purely that the brazed joints slipped out of the BB lug then you're still in for a lot of trouble since you still need to strip all the bits off the frame in that area and remove the paint before the joints can be brazed or silver soldered back together.

Last edited by BCRider; 10-20-10 at 11:41 AM.
BCRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 11:47 AM   #9
cycle_maven
Collector of Useless Info
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 1,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The 620 was a really nice touring frame IIRC, so if it isn't too rusty then brazing the seatstays back onto the seat lug should be a piece of cake and well worth the trouble. But the cracking may be an indication of a much more serious problem. A framebuilder would know, and Yellow Jersey is capable of fixing just about any steel frame ( may not like the cost, depending on what's needed).
cycle_maven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 12:18 PM   #10
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 7
Posts: 22,182
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1134 Post(s)
Blind guesses without pictures.
fietsbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 01:13 PM   #11
rdyant
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Chicago
Bikes: 1983 Trek 620
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 10-20-10_0810..jpg (19.4 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg 10-20-10_0809..jpg (24.2 KB, 53 views)
rdyant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 01:31 PM   #12
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
That's the lug that broke. Personally I prefer lugs that attaches to the back of the seat-tube rather than on the sides for this reason. Not terribly difficult to repair. Any competent frame-builder can braze that back together pretty easily. I'd say $50-100 for something that basic.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 01:56 PM   #13
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 7
Posts: 22,182
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1134 Post(s)
It's the Plug in the end of the seat stay, that forms that logo faced piece, its a cast piece,
sleeves inside a squared off end of the seat stay tube.

a framebuilder can heat the seat stay up and pull the broken one. replace it with a plain one , no Trek Logo,
grind, or file off the tip part that is still attached to the seat lug.

and braze up the new ones
fietsbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 02:16 PM   #14
BCRider
Senior Member
 
BCRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The 'Wack, BC, Canada
Bikes: Norco (2), Miyata, Canondale, Soma, Redline
Posts: 5,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Or they could just fillet braze back on what is there for a lot easier fix.

I don't know why but I was thinking CHAIN stays when I typed my previous post. I guess I've got "frame dislexia" and read "chain" where you clearly put in "seat"

Yeah, this would be an easy fix for any frame guy or even any decent welder with some brazing experience. Fillet brazing the stay ends back into place would add maybe an oz of brass or, more likely, silver solder to the weight of the frame. The biggest bit of trouble will be giving the area a good "down to raw metal" cleaning to prep it. And of course the paint for quite a few inches on either side will need to go.
BCRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 02:41 PM   #15
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 7
Posts: 22,182
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1134 Post(s)
Silver solder won't build up a fillet, but a wad of brass would work as a practical fix ,
replacing the plug tip would be a cleaner finished job, look almost as new, just no Logo.
fietsbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 02:43 PM   #16
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,782
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post

That's the lug that broke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
It's the Plug in the end of the seat stay, that forms that logo faced piece, its a cast piece, sleeves inside a squared off end of the seat stay tube.
No, it's not the lug, and no, it's not a one piece plug. The stay ends were cut at an angle, and a flat plate stamped with the TREK name brazed over the end. Then the stays were brazed onto the sides of the seat lug.

This type of failure is usually a result of not having enough brass under the stay. When I brazed stays on I tried to fill the area beneath the stay as full as possible without spilling over onto the seat tube.

That said, an easy fix for this would be to chop the stays off flat and use a plug such as described by feitsbob:
JohnDThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 03:03 PM   #17
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,782
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Silver solder won't build up a fillet, but a wad of brass would work as a practical fix ,
replacing the plug tip would be a cleaner finished job, look almost as new, just no Logo.
Well you could always get them engraved first:


N.B. these were samples made by Andrew Hague in Wales and never actually used on production frames.
JohnDThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 04:21 PM   #18
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
No, it's not the lug, and no, it's not a one piece plug. The stay ends were cut at an angle, and a flat plate stamped with the TREK name brazed over the end. Then the stays were brazed onto the sides of the seat lug.
Thanks for the info. Was this the result of the bean-counter department dictating production methods?
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 06:05 PM   #19
BCRider
Senior Member
 
BCRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The 'Wack, BC, Canada
Bikes: Norco (2), Miyata, Canondale, Soma, Redline
Posts: 5,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Acutally with all the various silver solder and silver brazing products covering such a range there are some nice silver solders that will fillet out such a repair very nicely while not having to get quite as high a temperature as needed for all out brazing. That's where a good welder or frame guy that knows his brazing alloys front back and sideways would be a great advantage.
BCRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 06:24 PM   #20
bhchdh 
Senior Member
 
bhchdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hampton Roads VA
Bikes: '07 Trek 520, '09 Gary Fisher Triton, '04 Trek 8000, '85 Trek 500, '84 Trek 610, '85 Trek 510
Posts: 1,758
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
27 years and 120,000 miles is a pretty good run. I'd get it fixed.
__________________
"When I hear another express an opinion, which is not mine, I say to myself, He has a right to his opinion, as I to mine; why should I question it. His error does me no injury, and shall I become a Don Quixot to bring all men by force of argument, to one opinion? If a fact be misstated, it is probable he is gratified by a belief of it, and I have no right to deprive him of the gratification."

T. Jefferson
bhchdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 09:37 PM   #21
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,782
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Thanks for the info. Was this the result of the bean-counter department dictating production methods?
No, it's a traditional means of finishing off seat stays.
JohnDThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-10, 10:06 PM   #22
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 7
Posts: 22,182
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1134 Post(s)
un broken, #17 is that piece having been heated till the brass remelted, the brass when hot flows into the gap between the ID of the tube,
and that part of the cast top piece that still has some brass on it..

No what you show, JDT is a cast piece , just like BB shells and lugs ,

If you were to order several hundred pairs of those pieces they would put Your name on it ..

Cutting the hollow tube at an angle, then capping it with a piece of steel sheet would be available in a hand made frame , When I did my DIY

Last edited by fietsbob; 10-20-10 at 11:46 PM.
fietsbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-10, 09:28 AM   #23
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,782
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
un broken, #17 is that piece having been heated till the brass remelted, the brass when hot flows into the gap between the ID of the tube, and that part of the cast top piece that still has some brass on it..

No what you show, JDT is a cast piece , just like BB shells and lugs ,
Most of them are not cast, but machined from steel rod stock. The "TREK" marked ones I posted above were samples, brazed into a prototype frame (thus the brass residue). I found the frame cut up and in the scrap bin, so I pulled the plugs out and took them home.
JohnDThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:32 PM.