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Old 10-26-10, 12:36 AM   #1
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mangled Shimano freehub/freewheel....which is it?

Seems I've got myself into a raw deal with an eBay purchase. I made believe I was getting a good deal on an '82 Miyata 1200. I'd anticipated changing out most of the components.... eventually. But it seems not to be even road worthy out of the create. Here's the latest discovery:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/83319125@N00/5117084426/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8331912...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8331912...n/photostream/

I discovered something was awry when I spun the rear wheel and could see the chain bobbing as the cogs wobbled while coasting. You can wiggle the freehub/freewheel (I really can't tell which it is) in and out and around by about a mm. It's loose but doesn't come off. And you can see damage to the slots, which look like someone tried to remove it and tore it up in the process.

It's a 6 spd Shimano 600 HG. I can't tell if it's a freehub or freewheel. How do you remove it?

sigh,
-Michael
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Old 10-26-10, 12:45 AM   #2
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Freehub and cassette, looks like. You sure it's HG and not UG (Ultra-glide)? If indeed it's a freehub/cassette, the cogs are locked down by the outermost cog. It is normal, right-threaded. You need two very strong chain whips; one holds the other cassettes in place, and the other applies counter-clockwise torque to the outer cog. In order to get a tight and old UG cassette off a wheel, I needed two other guys with two Parktools chainwhips, a piece of wood to rest the rim of the wheel on, and I stepped onto the handle of the chainwhip wrapped around the outer cog. Once loose, it came off easily. You could also try and do it on the bike, perhaps upside-down. Use the regular chain on an inner cog with someone applying normal force to the pedal, and you apply the chainwhip in the opposite direction.
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Old 10-26-10, 01:04 AM   #3
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(My guess is that) It's a freehub. I've had bikes with the early cassettes, and none of them had sockets for a 2 prong freewheel puller. But you're not really telling what the problem is.
Keep in mind that freewheels as well as cassettes do their important work while being stationary to the wheel. Some wobbling while coasting isn't going to hurt a bit. Excessive wobbling might eventually lead to trouble, but it's not something I've encountered personally.
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Old 10-26-10, 01:56 AM   #4
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It definitely says HG, at least on the face of the freehub. And it looks like there's two slots for removal (that are shredded) as in the pics. I've only wrenched freewheels thus far, so I keep trying to relate to that method. Sounds like a pain to remove with the chainwhips, and I only have one.

The problem I'm trying to describe is how the whole cassette is loose and you can wiggle it. You can pull and push it slightly, and there's wiggle room all around. Maybe it's not messed up, but I'm trying to understand what's wrong, so I'd like to remove it.

Last edited by depleted; 10-26-10 at 02:10 AM. Reason: stuff
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Old 10-26-10, 03:32 AM   #5
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..Sounds like a pain to remove with the chainwhips, and I only have one.
Not a problem if you follow Peripatetic's tip: leave wheel on bike, with regular chain on inner sprocket. use chainwhip on smallest sprocket to undo.

Do note that this will only get the sprockets off, which is unlikely to sort out your problem.

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The problem I'm trying to describe is how the whole cassette is loose and you can wiggle it. You can pull and push it slightly, and there's wiggle room all around.
To be nit picking - if the wheel still engages as it should when you pedal, and isn't dragging when you coast - then it isn't much of a problem, is it?
(not that excess wiggle is a good thing either...)

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... but I'm trying to understand what's wrong,
Slightly sloppy assembly probably. Bearing play in freewheels/freehubs is set by shimming. Use a few too many/too thick and you get bearing play while coasting. Some is common, maybe you have a tad more than usual. Rarely an issue IRL.

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...I'd like to remove it.
If you're hell-bent on fixing it - don't remove it. Fixing this means taking the freewheel apart, and you don't need to remove it from the wheel for that. In fact having it stuck solidly to the wheel will probably make that operation easier. Find a tool that engages the holes in the ring with the text on it and have a go. Drift punch works, but makes a mess. Can't remember offhand the thread direction. Be aware that it will spill a large number of small balls when it comes apart.
Once you've identified where the shims go, remove one. then put balls and pawls back and reassemble.

Last edited by dabac; 10-26-10 at 03:41 AM. Reason: Naturally Sheldon Brown had a page about it. http://sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html. Ring unscrews clockwise.
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Old 10-26-10, 04:04 AM   #6
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It definitely says HG, at least on the face of the freehub. And it looks like there's two slots for removal (that are shredded) as in the pics. I've only wrenched freewheels thus far, so I keep trying to relate to that method. Sounds like a pain to remove with the chainwhips, and I only have one.

The problem I'm trying to describe is how the whole cassette is loose and you can wiggle it. You can pull and push it slightly, and there's wiggle room all around. Maybe it's not messed up, but I'm trying to understand what's wrong, so I'd like to remove it.
You definitely have a Shimano MF-6161 6-speed UniGlide freewheel (the lettering on the cap says "Shimano 600 EH"). The tips of the teeth are twisted. You have the one on the left:





HyperGlide have straight teeth with cut-out ramps on the sides:


Looks like someone tried to remove the freewheel with a Suntour 2-prong tool instead of the Shimano 2-prong tool (they are different diameter). They also may not have put the QR back on to hold the tool in place. The slipping tool broke the freewheel body. Your best bet is to destructively remove the freewheel. Use a punch to drive off the end-cap of the freewheel in a clockwise direction:



Once the cap is off, you can remove the outer-body with the cogs (along with a billion small bearings). Then remove the inner body with channel-lock pliers or pipe-wrench in countre-clockwise direction (or clamp it in a vise and spin the wheel). Then grease and adjust the axle and just slap on a newer Hyperglide freewheel. The 7-spd versions really work well, especially considering the $15 price:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41zdbd7SZhL._SS500_.jpg


The splined remover also makes slipping and damaging the freehweel much less likely.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 10-26-10 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 10-26-10, 04:37 AM   #7
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Danno is correct. It's a freewheel as shown by the 2 removal slots. Using chain whips will remove the cogs, but the body will still be there ... not what you want.

The only question is if you really need to remove it. Some "wobble" is normal with freewheels ... no big deal. A bit of looseness is also no big deal. Do you have a real need to remove it ? If so, get the correct tool and use the correct method of using the QR skewer to keep the tool in place so it won't slip off like it did last time.

If you decide to leave it on, you can dripple a teaspoon of light oil (10w-30) into the bearings. Spin it slowly backwards and dribble the oil between the fixed body & the moving cogs.
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Last edited by Homebrew01; 10-26-10 at 04:41 AM.
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Old 10-26-10, 06:07 AM   #8
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The obove advice will relube a freewheel. If it is full of crud you need to flush it out with a solvent first. I use WD40.
It is easier to flush out when removed.
You dont need a chainwhip to remove a freewheel. The easiest method is to hold a appropriate freewheel removal tool upright in a bench vice and rotate the wheel.
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Old 10-26-10, 06:29 AM   #9
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the first one
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Old 10-26-10, 09:49 AM   #10
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the first one
Just out of curiosity, have you ever posted anything of any use? If so, I haven't seen it.
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Old 10-26-10, 11:16 AM   #11
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Funny how many thought it was a freehub. It's freewheel, and if you can't fix it in place you will have to go to drastic measures to get it off there. THe two-prong freewheel removal system is one of the worst things you will ever have to work on on any bicycle. I would rather disassemble and rebuild a hundred STI levers before I try to remove one two-prong freewhweel.

Although, it is usually possible to disassemble and rebuild freewheels (starting with the punch as shown in DannoXYZ's post), but you have to be prepared to chase hundreds of tiny ball-bearings around your workbench for an hour.
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Old 10-26-10, 05:31 PM   #12
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The wobble is normal and necessary. Go ride your damn bike.
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Old 10-26-10, 09:26 PM   #13
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The wobble is normal and necessary. Go ride your damn bike.
Oh yeah, check the freewheel by spinning it in the forward direction that the chain would. Once the pawls engage, is there any more motion? Of not, there's nothing to worry about. Maybe drip some heavy-oil through and that's it.
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Old 10-27-10, 04:32 AM   #14
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Easiest way to tell a Shimano freehub is the bulge inside the right flange where the 10mm allen sleeve holds the cassette body onto the hub. Fatter MTB hubs can conceal it, but AFAIK they didn't really come along until freewheels were old hat anyway.
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Old 10-27-10, 07:25 PM   #15
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The wobble is normal and necessary. Go ride your damn bike.
I don't have another freewheel that wobbles around on its hub, to the point of shaking the chain up and down when engaged forward. But I defer to such words of wisdom.

Actually, I've got some wheels en route from a friend and I can toss this whole mess into the parts bin.
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Old 10-28-10, 01:40 AM   #16
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I don't have another freewheel that wobbles around on its hub, to the point of shaking the chain up and down when engaged forward. .
Ah, but that's another issue. First post said "wobbles when coasting", which although aestetically annoying as a rule isn't much to worry about.
If it's that bad, go for a replacement or have a go at servicing it. If the other option is "immediately into the parts bin" it's not like you have anything to lose any more.
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Old 11-02-10, 08:10 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
You definitely have a Shimano MF-6161 6-speed UniGlide freewheel (the lettering on the cap says "Shimano 600 EH"). The tips of the teeth are twisted. You have the one on the left:





HyperGlide have straight teeth with cut-out ramps on the sides:


Looks like someone tried to remove the freewheel with a Suntour 2-prong tool instead of the Shimano 2-prong tool (they are different diameter). They also may not have put the QR back on to hold the tool in place. The slipping tool broke the freewheel body. Your best bet is to destructively remove the freewheel. Use a punch to drive off the end-cap of the freewheel in a clockwise direction:



Once the cap is off, you can remove the outer-body with the cogs (along with a billion small bearings). Then remove the inner body with channel-lock pliers or pipe-wrench in countre-clockwise direction (or clamp it in a vise and spin the wheel). Then grease and adjust the axle and just slap on a newer Hyperglide freewheel. The 7-spd versions really work well, especially considering the $15 price:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41zdbd7SZhL._SS500_.jpg


The splined remover also makes slipping and damaging the freehweel much less likely.
very useful post thanks
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