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  1. #1
    your god hates me Bob Ross's Avatar
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    7/8-speed chain with 10-speed cranks = trouble (?)

    This seems like it oughtta be easy to figure out, but Imma defer to more experienced mechanics:

    I have an old Bridgestone 600 road bike circa 1985. 126mm rear hub, originally a 6-speed freewheel, but it got chainged to a 7-speed freewheel a few years ago. Not sure what make/model chain is on it at this point, but the SRAM quick-disconnect link says "8-Speed"

    Recently the mechanic at my LBS attributed trouble I was having shifting in front to worn teeth on the chainrings (which makes sense, since they were the original parts with 25 years wear&tear on 'em). He took the liberty of replacing the entire crankset with a brand new (2010 model year) FSA Gossamer MegaExo crankset

    ...and ever since, the drivetrain has been extremely sensetive to cross-chaining. I can only use the three smallest cogs with the big ring, or the three largest cogs with the small ring; otherwise I get major loud grinding/scraping noise emanating from the crank area.

    It seems to me the problem is that an 7- (or 8-) speed chain is wider than the 10-speed chain that FSA anticipated would be used with their modern crankset, and so the seemingly modest chain angle causes the side of the chain to rub against the teeth of whatever chainring is not being used.

    Does that sentence make sense, and does my analysis seem likely? (If so, it seems like the solution is to simply put a modern 10-speed chain on this bike.)

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Yes, it makes perfect sense. The biggest difference between older 7s *s & 9s cranksets and 10s or 11s isn't the chainring teeth, but the chanring separation. The chainrings are moved closer together so that the narrower chains won't get hung up between then when downshifting.

    Since the rings are closer, there less clearance for a chain coming from the outside to the inner chainring, and the allowable angle is reduced. It shouldn't make any difference when using the large ring with inner cassette sprockets, since the chain is above the inner ring.

    You have two choices. You can use spacers to increase the chainring separation, or move to a somewhat narrower chain. I wouldn't use a 10s chain, but probably a 9s will nicely split the difference, running on your 7s freewheel, and improve the angle clearance of the cranks.
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  3. #3
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    rollers get thinner as do plates of 10 speed chains to fit in 10 stack cassettes..

    so teeth of chainrings have thinner teeth , and get closer spaced ,

    so add a thin shim washer around each chainring bolt , there are various thicknesses made ,

    and you can spread the distance between the chainrings that way ..

    I'd use a 7-8 speed chain as it's a cog thickness issue in the back,
    9 speed started the make more fit in the same space thing,
    so shaved off thickness of and gap between cogs.
    Last edited by fietsbob; 12-25-10 at 11:42 AM.

  4. #4
    slow as I ever was Ex Pres's Avatar
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    Did he change the tooth difference up front as well? You may have had a 52/42 before (10 tooth difference), and now have a 53/39 (14 tooth difference). Doesn't sound like much, but will cause chain rub in the smaller cogs when on the small ring.

    I'm running one bike with a 7s rear and a 52/34 front, but on older 80's crank. With a 42 small ring - no issues. With the 34, I rub in the two smallest cogs.

    So, I'd add spacers to widen the 10s ring spacing back to old 7s (5mm c-c), and expect some cross-chain rub in the extreme.
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  5. #5
    we be rollin' hybridbkrdr's Avatar
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    I know there are some helpful ideas here. But, if you have the money, time/inclination to do so, you could always find an 8 speed (from what I read, 6,7,8 speed chains are the same width) crankset. For a road crankset, if you wanted Shimano it would be either Shimano 2200 or 2300 or something like that (you'd have to find exact model number) and there are some Shimano Alivio, Acera etc available as well (or Tourney if you're really cheap).

    The places I usually look for stuff...
    Amazon, Airbomb, Aebike, Velo-orange, Harriscyclery, Icycles, Bikeparts, Bikeman, Jensonusa, Niagracycle, eBikestop, Cambriabike, Universalcycles, Smallbikeparts, Wheelworld. And in the UK, Chainreactioncycles, Saint John Cycles. And in Germany, Bike24 and Bike-x-perts.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by hybridbkrdr View Post
    ..... But, if you have the money, time/inclination to do so, you could always find an 8 speed (from what I read, 6,7,8 speed chains are the same width) crankset. .....
    The OP has just replaced the crankset (and likely the bottom bracket). Why should he spend more money to do it again, when the solution is so simple and inexpensive. The spacers are readily available and cost very little and do a perfect job re-establishing proper chainring separation.
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  7. #7
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Depending on chainline, try to get away with just shimming the inner ring; it'll be neater.

    Or just go with a 9spd chain; that'd be easier, if a fair bit more expensive.

  8. #8
    your god hates me Bob Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Pres View Post
    Did he change the tooth difference up front as well? You may have had a 52/42 before (10 tooth difference), and now have a 53/39 (14 tooth difference).
    Yes, that's exactly what happened.

  9. #9
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    At a guess, the FD wasn't readjusted properly (or at all), and that's what's causing the noise in the big ring.

    Your mechanic sounds like a hack.

  10. #10
    we be rollin' hybridbkrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    The OP has just replaced the crankset (and likely the bottom bracket). Why should he spend more money to do it again, when the solution is so simple and inexpensive. The spacers are readily available and cost very little and do a perfect job re-establishing proper chainring separation.
    I never said he should. I said if he had the time, money/inclination to do it.

    Why would I think of it that way? If he wanted to be somewhat perfectionist like me.

    The one "odd" thing I find about this however (to put it politely), is that the mechanic "took the liberty" of changing his crankset. It's not like he took the time to discuss what could have been an option the customer would like etc. It looks like he just created another problem.

    When I read crap like this it makes me think again about putting my touring bike together myself. I haven't received my large order of bike parts yet, but I when I'm ready to complete it, I may just try doing some things myself.

  11. #11
    your god hates me Bob Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    At a guess, the FD wasn't readjusted properly (or at all), and that's what's causing the noise in the big ring.
    Downtube friction shifters. Nothing to readjust.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    Your mechanic sounds like a hack.
    You're not the first person to suggest that, but there's an overwhelming majority of cyclists in NYC who disagree; this guy's got a reputation bordering on legend. A minor deity in local circles. For me, I'm on the fence: He's done some remarkable work salvaging this bike, but he also overlooked this current issue which seems like it would've been hard to miss even if he just ran through all the gears while the bike was up in the workstand.

    I'm liking the shims/spacers between the chainrings idea, at least as a temporary solution...there's a good chance I might just bite the bullet and convert the whole thing to a 10-speed sooner or later.

  12. #12
    aka: Dr. Cannondale rccardr's Avatar
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    Downtube friction shifters. Nothing to readjust.
    Not so. Change the size of the big ring and you should change theheight of the FD. Otherwise, well...chain noise ensues.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
    Not so. Change the size of the big ring and you should change theheight of the FD. Otherwise, well...chain noise ensues.
    Yes, the height of the FD should be reset to match the chainring, but it shouldn't affect drive train noise either way. In normal running (not during shifting) the FD shouldn't be touching anything so it's position shouldn't affect drive train noise either way. In this case the OP is speaking of noise caused by the chain brushing the outer ring when coming from the outer cassette sprockets, so it isn't an FD issue at all.
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  14. #14
    your god hates me Bob Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
    Not so. Change the size of the big ring and you should change theheight of the FD. Otherwise, well...chain noise ensues.
    For all I know, the mechanic did adjust the height of the FD when switching from my old 52 to the new 53. There's no chain noise when running big chainring/small cogs, or small chainring/big cogs. It's only when slightly crosschaining -- and it's the "slightly" part that makes this an issue at all, if I were compaining about big ring/big cog combos I'd be deservedly deep in the stupid -- that I get any noise. Hence my suspicion that the width of the chain is not compatible with the side-to-side spacing of the chainrings.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    In this case the OP is speaking of noise caused by the chain brushing the outer ring when coming from the outer cassette sprockets, so it isn't an FD issue at all.
    More specifically, my suspicion is that the chain is brushing the inside of the big ring when in the small ring and middle-to-small cogs, and that it's brushing the outside of the small ring when in the big ring and middle-to-big cogs.
    Last edited by Bob Ross; 12-26-10 at 03:26 PM.

  15. #15
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    There's a very easy test for insufficient chainring separation. Shift to the inner ring and to an outer cassette sprocket that you expect should be OK. say the 3rd smallest. Now, with the bike on the ground, or the rear brake on, press the pedal to tension the chain and look for visible clearance as the chain passes the outer ring. If you're not sure try trapping a dollar bill in there as the chain is tensioned. If it holds the bill there's no clearance, and the rings need more separation.

    You can test each sprocket and determine which combinations are OK or not, then decide whether you can live with it or not.
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  16. #16
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
    More specifically, my suspicion is that ...
    ...and that it's brushing the outside of the small ring when in the big ring and middle-to-big cogs.
    How is that even possible without TT rings? It must be rubbing on the derailleur. Either the mechanic should've adjusted the derailleur's angle to suit, or if the chain's just too wide for the derailleur, asked you if you wanted to use a 9spd chain, or to go the hack and shim the rings and tweak the FD cage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post




    More specifically, my suspicion is that the chain is brushing the inside of the big ring when in the small ring and middle-to-small cogs, and that it's brushing the outside of the small ring when in the big ring and middle-to-big cogs. (emphasis added).
    The first scenario is likely and easy enough to check. The second, touching the inner while on the outer is physically impossible, given that the chain is beyond the diameter of the smaller ring.

    In any case this kind of problem is easy to diagnose by simply looking to see what, if anything, the chain is touching.
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  18. #18
    cab horn
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    FSA Gossamer cranks are essentially only 9/10 speed compatible (the external bottom bracket version - not sure about the new BB30 version). The crank spider thickness remains the same it's the chainrings themselves which make them 9/10 or 10 compatible.

    The old rings that don't shift well aren't marked 'N10' on them, the chainrings are further apart - thus more 9 speed compatible than 10. The 'N10' rings has moved both rings closer together - the effect is that the chain no longer skates between the two rings on downshifts on 10 speed systems, the result is that in the smaller 2/3 cogs the chain will rub up on the large ring when the chain is on the small - this doesn't matter except in the OP's case since he wants it backwards compatible with 8 speed.

    I had the privilege of installing a 10 speed sram crank, on a 8 speed otherwise drivetrain the other week - the result is that you get chain rub onto the large ring than usual, because of the wider chain. Too bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
    It seems to me the problem is that an 7- (or 8-) speed chain is wider than the 10-speed chain that FSA anticipated would be used with their modern crankset, and so the seemingly modest chain angle causes the side of the chain to rub against the teeth of whatever chainring is not being used.
    I had no usable overlapping gears between my chain rings due to rub on the big ring using the three smallest cogs with the small ring when I paired an FSA "9 and 10 speed compatible" crank set with a Campagnolo 9 speed chain and 40.6 cm seat stays until I spaced the rings back to 9 speed dimensions using thin shims made by LeTour and Wheels Manufacturing specifically for solving the compatability problem between 10 speed crank sets and 9 speed chains.

  20. #20
    cab horn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
    I had no usable overlapping gears between my chain rings due to rub on the big ring using the three smallest cogs with the small ring when I paired an FSA "9 and 10 speed compatible" crank set with a Campagnolo 9 speed chain and 40.6 cm seat stays until I spaced the rings back to 9 speed dimensions using thin shims made by LeTour and Wheels Manufacturing specifically for solving the compatability problem between 10 speed crank sets and 9 speed chains.
    Now my question is why you even bother trying to make redundant gears work...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    Now my question is why you even bother trying to make redundant gears work...?
    I can't speak for Drew, but IMO redundant, or overlapping gears in the mid range are highly desirable. They allow some room to stay on the same chainring as conditions change letting me pick when I want to change the front. Sometimes it'll be never, as I use overlapping gears or cross overs to stay on the same chainring for a short time, say outer with mid and inner sprockets for short hills.

    A bike set up with zero overlap will need a double shift to find the next gear in the progression. That doesn't always happen at the most convenient time.
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  22. #22
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    +1 FBinNY.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    Now my question is why you even bother trying to make redundant gears work...?
    With the redundant cogs getting to the next gear takes one click of the right shifter, negligible fraction of a second to get to the next gear, and even works well under load.

    Without them it's a front shift and up to five rear shifts (Shimano and SRAM brifters only go one cog smaller per lever actuation), takes noticeable time to get to the next gear, and does not really work under load.

    Doing that occasionally is fine, but with the wrong terrain/wind/fatigue combination it becomes fairly constant and annoying when you like (or need - _Training and Racing with a Power Meter_ opens with an anecdote about a racer who gets dropped when he spends more than five minutes at his one hour power below 75 RPM) to stay in a preferred cadence range.

    I want enough "redundant" gears to make the situation improbable.

    I entered the 8-speed era in Boulder, CO with 50-40-30x13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21 so I wouldn't want to change cogs if I rode west (up the Rocky Mountains) or east (the plains don't stop in Kansas) on my lunch hour ride with about 3-4 gears of overlap when you ignore cross-chained situations. I can't recall any situations where I didn't like the amount of double shifting.

    http://www.gear-calculator.com/#KB=3...F=2099&SL=2.65

    I switched to 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23 after 13-21 8 speed was discontinued.

    http://www.gear-calculator.com/#KB=3...UF=2099&SL=2.7

    and then swapped the front to a 50-34 compact double after I wore out my big ring and bottom bracket because 2 are better than 3 and 34x23 is the same as 30x21.

    http://www.gear-calculator.com/#KB=3...F=2099&SL=2.45

    Without the last three cogs reachable there was no gear that felt good around 15 MPH. With them reachable, disregarding the extremely cross-chained 50x23 and 34x13 there's one overlapping gear which is nice for about 15-17 MPH.

    Fatigue, wind, and recovery days create situations in "flat" terrain (with at most 1% grades) where that's not enough and there's too much shifting going on.

    The next time I change things around I'll do something with more overlap; perhaps another triple or maybe 46-36 x 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-25 11 speed

    http://www.gear-calculator.com/#KB=3...F=2099&SL=2.45

    there are 5-6 overlapping cogs there.

    Even when you're not using the gears in the overlapped region they make for a better chain line on the gears you do use for less chain noise and wear.

    The closer front rings that go with increased overlap make for faster double shifts, with the next gear between rings like 50 and 40 coming up with a single right shifter nudge using Campagnolo levers (3 cogs larger, 5 cogs smaller).
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 12-28-10 at 07:34 PM.

  24. #24
    your god hates me Bob Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    touching the inner while on the outer is physically impossible, given that the chain is beyond the diameter of the smaller ring.
    Ah, okay, that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    In any case this kind of problem is easy to diagnose by simply looking to see what, if anything, the chain is touching.
    Yeah, I guess I'm way overdue for simply throwing the bike up on a workstand and looking at it, rather than trying to figure out what's happening while I'm riding! Thanks.

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