neondave

Two weeks ago, I droped off a 26" , 32 hole rim and a 32 hole Dynohub. The guy finally gets to it today, calls me. and says he cant figure it out.

I just droped it off at cycle shop #2. Is the something really out of the ordinary for an experianced wheel builder that he cant lace this hub up ?!

Any tips , photos, etc that might guide a wheel builder ??

Thanks, (no Dyno ) dave

mrrabbit 

Tell me the model number and you'll get a definitive answer from me...

=8-)

neondave

This is a GH6 , front Dyno. 1972

FBinNY 

If it's the hub I remember, there's nothing special in the build except for how to deal with the unequal flange diameters. I think his problem might be lacing the smaller flange which doesn't have regular holes but holes shaped sort of like this -O-. The big hole is so you can load the spoke head through without threading the spoke, and both spokes pull away from the central hole.

The trick to building this hub is to figure the sequence of spokes, then load and lace the large flange. Bring those spokes up to enough tension to keep shape, then load and lace the smaller flange in crossed pairs, and tightening them enough to stay put as you go along. Once all the spokes are loaded and brought up to the same length, the rest of the build is the same as any other wheel.

mrrabbit 

Okay...

I'm thinking...2X on the non-drive and 3X on the drive side for spoke length calculation purposes...I've seen some folks go 3X and 4X though. As FBinNY pointed out it likely has the -0- hole style and usually those are expecting 2.6mm or .105 guage. Not always, but that is generally what I see. At the very least, use 2.3/2.0 single butted spokes if that is the case.

If you have a pic of the hub...that'd be great. Understand that a lot of wheelbuilders out there are wheelbuilders in the sense that they can work with known spoke lengths and lace by learned habit within a simplified framework. In other words, they are not mathmeticians like some of us who also understand how lacing actually works regardless of hub design or rim design. You probably ran into a "limited" type of wheelbuilder.

Usually they are general mechanics who by shear necessity learned just enough wheelbuilding to have a complete skillset in their shop. They are survivors and you have to give 'em credit for that.

=8-)

FBinNY 

Back in the day when this hub was made, it would be built OEM with 14g (.080 or 2mm) plain spokes, usually galvanized rather than stainless. You can certainly upgrade to stainless, and 14g butted if you want.

The key to building these is good planning and visualization, because the smaller flange which is the second you lace, can only be laced with the spokes pulling away from the central hole. That means you have to be sure where you're headed when you load and lace the larger flange.

I agree with Mrrabbit, that being able to deal with something a bit different is a litmus test for wheel builders. It's like driving from NYC to Chicago; anyone can get there today with GPS, some can do it without GPS if they stay on main highways, and a few can do if off the main road, managing detours and shortcuts around bottlenecks.

You're looking for the wheelbuilder who really knows his way and can get to Chicago without a GPS or a Roadmap.

Sixty Fiver

One more issue a person can face when lacing up vintage SA hubs is that the steel flange is thinner than a modern aluminium flange so spoke washers should be used to make sure the spoke heads seat properly and this will make for a better built wheel.

The stock spokes were a lot thicker than modern spokes and the elbows were shorter and have even seen much older SA hubs built with older spokes and spoke washers.

fietsbob

different, Rear end.. have a Campag High Low , I laced them with 2 different cross patterns.
worked OK..
right Large flange side 3 cross , left small side 4 cross..
think it was about 25 years ago , I don't hammer on them, so they're still fine..

Mr IGH

I built mine with 70's vintage Union spokes 14 gauge spokes, 2x/3x, no washers, it's worked for years. I've never needed washers on a rear steel SA hub much less a front wheel. Must be more than 100,000 Schwinns with Union spokes on SA 3 speed hubs, no washers, built through the 60's and 70's, still running 50 years later on the factory spokes.

FBinNY 

Whether washers are indicated for steel flanged hubs depends on the spokes used. Ideally the length of the elbow is matched to the thickness of the flange.

Back when steel flanges were the norm the spokes had shorter elbows. As alloy flanges became dominent, the spoke elbows were lengthened to accommodate them so they're longer than ideal for steel flanges, and washers can be used under the heads to choke them up a bit.

In the case of the OP's Dynohub, he could use washers on the larger flange but not on the smaller because threading them is almost impossible. In any case, these wheels don't get the kind of abuse light road or mtb wheels get, and there's close to zero dish, so the poor fit of the elbows isn't as critical as it might otherwise be, and they can be omitted with little consequence.

It's one of those cases where it makes a difference, but nor enough of one to be of concern.

fietsbob

the O in the middle should be big enough to feed the head thru, directly.

FBinNY 

No, not at all.

Here's a good picture showing the -O- shaped holes (discribed at length in earlier posts) that allow breach loading of the small flange and eliminate any need to bend or flex any spokes.

mrrabbit 

Good grief! Let's call ball bearings ball ammo and radial lacing a shot dispersal cone.



=8-)

FBinNY 

I responded to a post saying the spokes would need to be bent to be threaded, then that poster went back and edited his post to what it now says, making my response out of context.

fietsbob

Anyhow , the -O- holed flange was a feature of the very collectible Maxcar Hubs ,
on the right flange .
so broken spokes could be easily replaced.

seems a some what brilliant no-brainer for a touring bike hub.

but not further adopted. may have been a tooling issue for mass production
others found too costly.

mrrabbit 

Actually, amazingly enough, it's still around even with modern hubs. Seems 3rd parties hub providers are using it. Seen it a few times in some paired spoke wheels I've worked on in the last year.

Wouldn't it be cool if the utility of Deore XT hubs could be increased by way of disc and non-disc high flange versions supplied with -0- holing targetted specifically at touring bike and touring tandems.

=8-)

(The above assumes someone isn't doing it already...)

FBinNY 

Having built wheels with -O- holes on both flanges, I can tell you that it's a royal pain without some fixturing for both the hub and rim. It does make spoke replacement easier, and is almost necessary for hi/lo flange hubs, though I prefer it only for the smaller flange. There is also a cost to the design in terms of loss of flange strength which needs to be considered.

neondave

Hi,
I'll get my wheel back tomarrow. I stopped by the shop and he was truing it up. This is an older bike shop, he had NOS spokes for the small side, worked out to be 3 cross. But for the Dyno side, he had a limited spoke selection, so, that side is 3 cross also, no problem there is there ? Is it stronger that way ? He was really 'gettin' in' to the challenge. Maybe this should be my new local bike shop

Thanks,( Dyno )dave

jrecoi

Why not use emergency spokes, that is spokes with the heads cut off and a Z-bend put in? I have seen some old threads talking about them. The idea goes to the effect that the Z-bend effectively imitates the spoke elbow yet with no spoke head, the spokes can be fed with ease, even with sprockets and disk brakes and all. There used to be a tool by Eldi designed to cut and bend these emergency spokes in one go, however they haven't been made since the 70s.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=dog+leg+spoke

Aside from the Eldi tool, I found this one that can make identical spokes in batches rather than the hit and miss measuring that the Eldi tool depended on.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/48162770@N05/

FBinNY 

No problem with 3x on the large flange. It's neither stronger nor weaker that way. I agree that this shop's positive attitude is a very positive sign. I'd certainly reward them with future business.

mrrabbit 

Don't take this too harsh...think of this as a Devil's Advocate in play...

1. Maybe I think they are ugly?
2. Maybe I think J-bend are more readily available?
3. Maybe I don't need another tool for something that I have yet to have cross my path to begin with?
4. Maybe the -0- looks cleaner and cooler and will accept both J-bend AND Z-bend spokes?
5. Mabye the fact that most of my wheels are provided with spare spokes negates the need?
6. Maybe the fact that a broken spoke - especially if it has been a few already - calls for a rebuild anyway?
7. Maybe++;

=8-)

Mr IGH

Schwinn used the same spokes for SA 3 speeds and Normandy hubs (straight guage German made Union brand spokes). I'm in doubt but ready to learn.

Do you have any pictures of how spokes changed through the years?