Retensioning - am I close enough?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Retensioning - am I close enough?
Wheel is dished, and laterally and radially trued. Am I close enough to equi-tension to be done, or is it worthwhile (for the non-obsessive) to tighten up tension range?
Wheel: Velocity Aerohead, rear
Mfr recommended tension, drive side: 110-130 Kgf
DS mean tension: 122 Kgf
range: -11% to +12%
NDS mean tension: 69 Kgf
range: -12% to +29%
Wheel: Velocity Aerohead, rear
Mfr recommended tension, drive side: 110-130 Kgf
DS mean tension: 122 Kgf
range: -11% to +12%
NDS mean tension: 69 Kgf
range: -12% to +29%
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,544
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5703 Post(s)
Liked 2,426 Times
in
1,341 Posts
On a new build you should be much closer than that. The variation is probably indicative of imbalances you introduced during the build, such as still having some hop when the wheel was already fairly tight, which now must be compensated for with excess differences in tension between different areas of the rim. (once tight, the rim can no longer move around the circumference to equalize).
Also look for unmatched tension between crossed pairs, it's easy to end up with one lose and one tight, and this can now be corrected, though it might require some adjustment on the opposite side.
If it's a repaired wheel it's perfectly reasonable, since uneven tension is how you compensate for and correct bends within the rim.
Also look for unmatched tension between crossed pairs, it's easy to end up with one lose and one tight, and this can now be corrected, though it might require some adjustment on the opposite side.
If it's a repaired wheel it's perfectly reasonable, since uneven tension is how you compensate for and correct bends within the rim.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,964
Bikes: Habanero Titanium Team Nuevo
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Liked 183 Times
in
120 Posts
Ask Velocity they are great to work with, I built a set a Velocity wheels they gave good advice. I actually think you maybe fine. On my offset rear rim they said get the DS to same as you and the let the NDS fall where it is as long as wheel is true laterally and radially.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 72 Times
in
48 Posts
What FB said. Look for a pattern if mismatched tensions. For example, it's possible to build a straight and true wheel with too much tension on all the leading spokes on one side and all the trailing spokes on the other.
If you don't find any pattern or mismatched pairs, call it good.
em
If you don't find any pattern or mismatched pairs, call it good.
em
#5
Slow mechanic
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What FB said. The following resource from Park Tool may be useful in helping understand/visualize the solution:
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...lator-for-tm-1
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...lator-for-tm-1
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sunnyvale, California
Posts: 1,180
Bikes: Bridgestone RB-1, 600, T700, MB-6 w/ Dirt Drops, MB-Zip, Bianchi Limited, Nashbar Hounder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Your tensions seem good. I might tighten the drive side a touch, especially on 8/9/10 spd gearing with more acute dish. But you're clearly within a good range. Your variance seems good too.
Note also that variance in tension can be caused by many factors beyond your control. E.g. What spokes are you using? DT competitions? Double butted? I've got some older sets of spokes and just by hand feel, the stiffness and location of the butting can vary significantly.
Most tensiometers have quite a bit of error, too. And rims in their natural state can have some imperfections out of round. This means you can sum up the variances and find more than 10 - 15% variation. I expect that in the measurement. My key indicators on a build are the run-out in roundness. And second is the lateral true run out. If you have less than 25% measured variation in tension on a new rim and it's round and true to less than 1mm either way, the rest of the slack is going to be picked up by the tires (which have variation in height/width). In addition, if the profile of the rim is aero, or semi-aero, depending on the mfg., small tolerances in round require great variance in tension to pull back into true round.
One of the keys to distributing tension properly is to remove wheel after each round of tensioning and apply lateral load on the rims with both hands working around the rim, then flip wheel over and repeat (aka 'ping' the wheel). Then round/true/repeat. If you find a low spot (too tight), try to always loosen a group of 4 spokes in that group (assuming 3/4 cross lacing), ping the wheel, then repeat check for round/true. But I assume you already have done that to get to this state.
Lastly, after the 3rd or 4th iteration, I'm usually quite happy with a wheel and I install rim strip, tube, tire, and inflate. The real test is to ride the wheel under load for a mile or so. This works and seats everything into what is really close to the final state of the wheel. I then take that wheel out, remove tire/tube and then recheck tension and do a final tension/true. While a wheel never seems to be able to re-distribute tension perfectly in a shop, there's nothing like a ride with a real person to put that wheel to the test and come back with any loose spokes. Must be Murphy's Law or something! LOL! But the great part is that I find that post-first ride re-tensioning to be sort of the magical opportunity to put the wheel into a final stable true that will last a long time (or until accident ruins the wheel).
Note also that variance in tension can be caused by many factors beyond your control. E.g. What spokes are you using? DT competitions? Double butted? I've got some older sets of spokes and just by hand feel, the stiffness and location of the butting can vary significantly.
Most tensiometers have quite a bit of error, too. And rims in their natural state can have some imperfections out of round. This means you can sum up the variances and find more than 10 - 15% variation. I expect that in the measurement. My key indicators on a build are the run-out in roundness. And second is the lateral true run out. If you have less than 25% measured variation in tension on a new rim and it's round and true to less than 1mm either way, the rest of the slack is going to be picked up by the tires (which have variation in height/width). In addition, if the profile of the rim is aero, or semi-aero, depending on the mfg., small tolerances in round require great variance in tension to pull back into true round.
One of the keys to distributing tension properly is to remove wheel after each round of tensioning and apply lateral load on the rims with both hands working around the rim, then flip wheel over and repeat (aka 'ping' the wheel). Then round/true/repeat. If you find a low spot (too tight), try to always loosen a group of 4 spokes in that group (assuming 3/4 cross lacing), ping the wheel, then repeat check for round/true. But I assume you already have done that to get to this state.
Lastly, after the 3rd or 4th iteration, I'm usually quite happy with a wheel and I install rim strip, tube, tire, and inflate. The real test is to ride the wheel under load for a mile or so. This works and seats everything into what is really close to the final state of the wheel. I then take that wheel out, remove tire/tube and then recheck tension and do a final tension/true. While a wheel never seems to be able to re-distribute tension perfectly in a shop, there's nothing like a ride with a real person to put that wheel to the test and come back with any loose spokes. Must be Murphy's Law or something! LOL! But the great part is that I find that post-first ride re-tensioning to be sort of the magical opportunity to put the wheel into a final stable true that will last a long time (or until accident ruins the wheel).
#7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks for the feedback guys. Sorry, I should have mentioned it's a used rim. I replaced a broken spoke along with a few other spokes with stripped nipples. The spokes are all double butted, stainless steel, round spokes. The old spokes are Wheelsmith 2.0/1.7 and the few new ones are DT 2.0/1.8 (I assume Competitions). I accounted for the larger diameter in the tension calcs in the OP.
Cool. I was a bit worried that the NDS tensions were a little low.
Sweet! I have the TM-1, so I'm going to download their spreadsheet, which gives a graphic representation of the tension in the wheel. I'm a sucker for this kind of thing.
Hmm, maybe I should ratchet up the tension a little. It's a Powertap with 10sp freehub.
Yeah, I've got the radial and lateral true to within about 1mm.
When pinging the wheel, I worry that I'm going to taco it, which might be keeping me back from applying enough force to effectively stress relieve it. I did hear two pings, but I'm guessing I should probably have heard more given that I only pinged the wheel after getting it up to just about final tension.
Good point. Instead of worrying about perfecting it pre-ride, I'll get it close enough and go for a spin and do a tune-up.
Ask Velocity they are great to work with, I built a set a Velocity wheels they gave good advice. I actually think you maybe fine. On my offset rear rim they said get the DS to same as you and the let the NDS fall where it is as long as wheel is true laterally and radially.
What FB said. The following resource from Park Tool may be useful in helping understand/visualize the solution:
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...lator-for-tm-1
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...lator-for-tm-1
Most tensiometers have quite a bit of error, too. And rims in their natural state can have some imperfections out of round. This means you can sum up the variances and find more than 10 - 15% variation. I expect that in the measurement. My key indicators on a build are the run-out in roundness. And second is the lateral true run out. If you have less than 25% measured variation in tension on a new rim and it's round and true to less than 1mm either way, the rest of the slack is going to be picked up by the tires (which have variation in height/width). In addition, if the profile of the rim is aero, or semi-aero, depending on the mfg., small tolerances in round require great variance in tension to pull back into true round.
One of the keys to distributing tension properly is to remove wheel after each round of tensioning and apply lateral load on the rims with both hands working around the rim, then flip wheel over and repeat (aka 'ping' the wheel). Then round/true/repeat. If you find a low spot (too tight), try to always loosen a group of 4 spokes in that group (assuming 3/4 cross lacing), ping the wheel, then repeat check for round/true. But I assume you already have done that to get to this state.
Lastly, after the 3rd or 4th iteration, I'm usually quite happy with a wheel and I install rim strip, tube, tire, and inflate. The real test is to ride the wheel under load for a mile or so. This works and seats everything into what is really close to the final state of the wheel. I then take that wheel out, remove tire/tube and then recheck tension and do a final tension/true. While a wheel never seems to be able to re-distribute tension perfectly in a shop, there's nothing like a ride with a real person to put that wheel to the test and come back with any loose spokes. Must be Murphy's Law or something! LOL! But the great part is that I find that post-first ride re-tensioning to be sort of the magical opportunity to put the wheel into a final stable true that will last a long time (or until accident ruins the wheel).
One of the keys to distributing tension properly is to remove wheel after each round of tensioning and apply lateral load on the rims with both hands working around the rim, then flip wheel over and repeat (aka 'ping' the wheel). Then round/true/repeat. If you find a low spot (too tight), try to always loosen a group of 4 spokes in that group (assuming 3/4 cross lacing), ping the wheel, then repeat check for round/true. But I assume you already have done that to get to this state.
Lastly, after the 3rd or 4th iteration, I'm usually quite happy with a wheel and I install rim strip, tube, tire, and inflate. The real test is to ride the wheel under load for a mile or so. This works and seats everything into what is really close to the final state of the wheel. I then take that wheel out, remove tire/tube and then recheck tension and do a final tension/true. While a wheel never seems to be able to re-distribute tension perfectly in a shop, there's nothing like a ride with a real person to put that wheel to the test and come back with any loose spokes. Must be Murphy's Law or something! LOL! But the great part is that I find that post-first ride re-tensioning to be sort of the magical opportunity to put the wheel into a final stable true that will last a long time (or until accident ruins the wheel).
When pinging the wheel, I worry that I'm going to taco it, which might be keeping me back from applying enough force to effectively stress relieve it. I did hear two pings, but I'm guessing I should probably have heard more given that I only pinged the wheel after getting it up to just about final tension.
Good point. Instead of worrying about perfecting it pre-ride, I'll get it close enough and go for a spin and do a tune-up.
Last edited by serpico7; 06-17-11 at 01:29 PM.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 9,438
Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
Fully inflate the tire and tube to riding pressure before the final truing and dish. You will probably find that the air pressure will reduce the spoke tension, and change the dish slightly. You want your best tension and truing job at riding pressure.
#10
Senior Member
I rebuilt a wheel with a power tap for a friend. He is about 225lbs and strong as an ox. Can generate over 800 watts for a short time on a climb. He actually broke 2 Mavic OpenPro rims.
I rebuilt the wheel the second time with a Sun rim and had to up the drive side tension to 130kg because he was breaking the NDS spokes at the nipple.
The power tap has a little extra dish because of the design of the hub which makes for lower NDS tension.
I rebuilt the wheel the second time with a Sun rim and had to up the drive side tension to 130kg because he was breaking the NDS spokes at the nipple.
The power tap has a little extra dish because of the design of the hub which makes for lower NDS tension.
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I was under the impression that the rim mfr suggested tensions are for unmounted wheels. I.e., they are factoring in the tension reduction that comes with an inflated tire.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sunnyvale, California
Posts: 1,180
Bikes: Bridgestone RB-1, 600, T700, MB-6 w/ Dirt Drops, MB-Zip, Bianchi Limited, Nashbar Hounder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I rebuilt a wheel with a power tap for a friend. He is about 225lbs and strong as an ox. Can generate over 800 watts for a short time on a climb. He actually broke 2 Mavic OpenPro rims.
I rebuilt the wheel the second time with a Sun rim and had to up the drive side tension to 130kg because he was breaking the NDS spokes at the nipple.
The power tap has a little extra dish because of the design of the hub which makes for lower NDS tension.
I rebuilt the wheel the second time with a Sun rim and had to up the drive side tension to 130kg because he was breaking the NDS spokes at the nipple.
The power tap has a little extra dish because of the design of the hub which makes for lower NDS tension.
#13
Bikaholic
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Western, Michigan
Posts: 1,461
Bikes: Trek Fuel 90, Giant OCR, Rans Screamer Tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What FB said. The following resource from Park Tool may be useful in helping understand/visualize the solution:
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...lator-for-tm-1
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...lator-for-tm-1
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 9,438
Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
One of my friends rides Velocity Aeroheads and his spoke tension is so high it's clear off the Park chart.
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I took some of the suggestions here about increasing tension, and ratcheted it up a little bit.
Per the Park spreadsheet:
DS avg: 135
std dev: 11
NDS avg: 76
std dev: 13
Here's what that looks like:
Using the visualization tool made it pretty easy to tighten up the range, to:
DS avg: 139
std dev: 7
NDS avg: 78
std dev: 7
And here's what that looks like:
I think it's time to put the rubber on the road and see how it holds up and maybe fine tune after a couple of rides. I am a little worried that the tension is pretty high (DS avg of 139Kgf), but we'll see.
Thanks to everyone for the tips, suggestions, and education in this thread and my other recent threads on related wheel topics. I feel a lot more confident about tearing down and rebuilding a wheel.
Per the Park spreadsheet:
DS avg: 135
std dev: 11
NDS avg: 76
std dev: 13
Here's what that looks like:
Using the visualization tool made it pretty easy to tighten up the range, to:
DS avg: 139
std dev: 7
NDS avg: 78
std dev: 7
And here's what that looks like:
I think it's time to put the rubber on the road and see how it holds up and maybe fine tune after a couple of rides. I am a little worried that the tension is pretty high (DS avg of 139Kgf), but we'll see.
Thanks to everyone for the tips, suggestions, and education in this thread and my other recent threads on related wheel topics. I feel a lot more confident about tearing down and rebuilding a wheel.
Last edited by serpico7; 06-18-11 at 10:21 AM.
#16
bike whisperer
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,533
Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1520 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times
in
508 Posts
I replaced a broken spoke along with a few other spokes with stripped nipples. The spokes are all double butted, stainless steel, round spokes. The old spokes are Wheelsmith 2.0/1.7 and the few new ones are DT 2.0/1.8 (I assume Competitions). I accounted for the larger diameter in the tension calcs in the OP.
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts