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  1. #1
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    Kaisei 4130R Tubing

    Help. Can't find much real-world information regarding Kaisei 4130R tubing.

    According to Kaisei's 2005 catalogue as well as this one http://www.bikeschool.com/PDF_Files/KAISEIPoster.pdf, it's directly comparable to Kaisei 8630R.

    Does anyone have real world experience with the differences between the two tubesets and any others? Which is lighter/stiffer?

    If you've ridden 4130R, let me know.


    Cheers.

  2. #2
    headtube. zzyzx_xyzzy's Avatar
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    It will ride the same as any other steel tubing that has the same butts and wall thickness. It will weigh the same as any other steel tubing with the same wall thickness and butts.

    Alloy composition doesn't really change the stiffness or density of steel.

    Alloy composition DOES affect ultimate strength, ease of cutting in the shop, how it's affected by brazing heat.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzyzx_xyzzy View Post
    It will ride the same as any other steel tubing that has the same butts and wall thickness. It will weigh the same as any other steel tubing with the same wall thickness and butts.

    Alloy composition doesn't really change the stiffness or density of steel.

    Alloy composition DOES affect ultimate strength, ease of cutting in the shop, how it's affected by brazing heat.
    If that is the case, I'm curious as to how Kaisei 4130R and 8630R differ. The latter is a Nickel Chro Mo, while the prior is Chro Mo, but the manufacturer specifies that the wall thicknesses and butting are equivalent.

    Simply a matter of ultimate strength, cutting, and response to brazing? Any experience with those differences for these two steels?

  4. #4
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laced View Post
    If that is the case, I'm curious as to how Kaisei 4130R and 8630R differ. The latter is a Nickel Chro Mo, while the prior is Chro Mo, but the manufacturer specifies that the wall thicknesses and butting are equivalent.

    Simply a matter of ultimate strength, cutting, and response to brazing? Any experience with those differences for these two steels?
    Join the Classic Rendezvous discussion list...you can find the list in Google Groups.

    There are several framebuilders there including Brian Baylis who when carrying on discussions about frame materials and framebuilding will cover all the details of what matters when it comes MATERIAL & COMPOSITION versus STRENGTH, STIFFNESS, WEIGHT, FATIGUE AND MODES OF FAILURE.

    When following those discussions a lot of myths and commonly held beliefs get torn down and discarded.

    Just be ready for lots of emails though...

    =8-)
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    Disclaimer:

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    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  5. #5
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    never heard of Kaisei, but,
    4130 is a standard AISI designation for Chrome Moly Carbon steel alloy
    So, you can Look up the alloy % and tensile strength .
    Last edited by fietsbob; 07-20-11 at 10:27 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member gyozadude's Avatar
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    Not all grades of 4130 steel are the same, even if dimensionally they are (i.e. thickness, butting, etc.). The standard is a specification primarily of alloy composition, of something like 1% chromium, 0.25% of molybdenum, and 0.30% carbon and other things like silicon, manganese, etc. A key factor in the ultimate tensile strength and therefore feel on a ride will be how the tubing was extruded, drawn, or seam welded and then rolled, then how it was heat treated and cooled, and finally, how the frame got assembled (e.g. low-temp silver soldering or hi-temp TIG weld, etc.).

    So it's unlikely frames will ride "the same" by tubing from different makers, even if dimensionally they are the same. I don't know too many manufacturers who publish their tubing manufacturing process for the public. But you might be able to get a better idea of a tubeset's potential feel by studying butting, wall thickness, and tube diameter, plus tensile strength. As a pre-requisite, you may want to pick up some books on frame building principles and learn about trade offs of larger diameter and wall thickness to get some idea of what kind of end result you're looking for.

    But it's not an easy problem if you're really looking for a special type of ride quality. Some of these frame designers use some sophisticated CAD applications that can give them some idea of flex and stress at key points that help them predict what the rider will feel. Plus they have lots of data from previous frame built by the company to rely on. And they have very expensive robotic jigs and welding/soldering machines that can symmetrically heat and low-temp solder frames precisely to maintain of a joint that a human builder might not be able to do by hand.
    Yes, I can roll my own potsticker skins!

  7. #7
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    My touring rig got built of aircraft grade seamless stuff,

    yes tube has wall thickness specs ,

    that is what you order it by ..

    High priced bike tube sets go thru a Butting process ,
    Wall is thin in the middle thick on the ends ..

    If the OP is wanting to compare complete bikes by tube stickers ,
    have a good time .. it's a folly , IMHO..

    I just ride something , rather than fuss over Quest for perfect..
    Last edited by fietsbob; 07-20-11 at 10:30 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyozadude View Post
    So it's unlikely frames will ride "the same" by tubing from different makers, even if dimensionally they are the same.
    For any steel tube set. if the tube dimensions (wall thickness, butt length, etc.) are the same and the frames' geometry are the same, the rides will be IDENTICAL.

    As mrrabbit noted, there are a lot of myths, superstition and plain advertising puffery out there but most of it is misleading or plain wrong.

  9. #9
    Senior Member gyozadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    For any steel tube set. if the tube dimensions (wall thickness, butt length, etc.) are the same and the frames' geometry are the same, the rides will be IDENTICAL.

    As mrrabbit noted, there are a lot of myths, superstition and plain advertising puffery out there but most of it is misleading or plain wrong.
    The theory you're pushing is that the modulus of elasticity for steel is typical in the 200 GPa range. So the elastic flexual loads are theoretically "same" for any bike of the same geometry with the same butting with identical processes. And if in practice, strict standards on assembly and process are enforced, and we were all thin riders well within elastic limits of the metal, then yes, I agree. The ride is the same because the modulus is the same and it will last.

    But that doesn't take into account several factors - that some riders may push the limits of elasticity on their frames (either physically by virtue of being big or by loading down their bikes) and their frames will go into plastic deformation - and higher grades of steel will withstand such strains, especially in key areas of the bike, like BB and chainstays. And second, that the assembly process may negatively affect the metal causing some riders to venture into the fatigue stress range of the metal we are outside modulus of elasticity. Thirdly, it does not take into account changes in geometry of tubing despite the advertised of bulk specifications on the butting that may not show small details, like a seamed interior or rifling, or ovalization of stays. Yes, it may be the same geometry tubeset as advertised - but in practice, a vendor sells only a few grades, and adds special features and asymmetries to each for specific purposes.

    I recall this debate in Materials Science class. Yes, in theory - same geometry tubing and if well within elastic flex limits, yes - the ride is the same. But in practice, the tubes do make a difference because assembly is different, geometry is varied a little, and big folks like me ride closer to plastic limits of deformation and use subjective judgments like how a bike feels going over bumps and potholes where we get into fatigue stress limits of whatever process used to manufacture the bike and then tensile properties matter.

    Now, of course, if folks want to compare the ride of some 60 lb commercial dumpling delivery bike, I would concur that the Twin Phoenix brand rides the same as the Flying Horse brand bikes and here, the steel is steel and I wouldn't compare tubing yield stress and temper on 4130 Chromoly. But I do because I want a light bike too and one that's resilient and lively and stays that way years from now.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Gyozadude:

    Given:

    1. Three different generations of Masi 3V framesets in steel from the early 1980s to the late 1990s.
    2. Each provided in the exact same size and geometry.
    3. Each having any and all "timeline" distinguishing "touches" removed.

    After riding all three, would you be able to identify with 100% certainty the frame tubings in each uniquely constructed Masi 3V?

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  11. #11
    Senior Member gyozadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    Gyozadude:

    Given:

    1. Three different generations of Masi 3V framesets in steel from the early 1980s to the late 1990s.
    2. Each provided in the exact same size and geometry.
    3. Each having any and all "timeline" distinguishing "touches" removed.

    After riding all three, would you be able to identify with 100% certainty the frame tubings in each uniquely constructed Masi 3V?

    =8-)
    No. If they were manufactured using the same types of lugs, same exact geometry, and same process, it would be impossible to tell except with time and excess stress that would change the properties of the steel in each frame - likely preceding some minor failure.
    Yes, I can roll my own potsticker skins!

  12. #12
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    You had me at "No."

    The rest was unnecessary...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  13. #13
    Senior Member gyozadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    You had me at "No."

    The rest was unnecessary...

    =8-)
    Pardon the ignorance, but why was the rest unnecessary? Please elaborate.
    Yes, I can roll my own potsticker skins!

  14. #14
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    1. No ignorance as far I can tell.
    2. No elaboration necessary.

    If you had answered "yes", I would have suggested wine tasting in Sonoma...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  15. #15
    Senior Member gyozadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    1. No ignorance as far I can tell.
    2. No elaboration necessary.

    If you had answered "yes", I would have suggested wine tasting in Sonoma...

    =8-)
    :-). Funny. I just took some relatives to wine tasting in Sonoma and then stopped to fish at the Sea Ranch. But had I spent the money on 3 Masi frames, I probably couldn't afford the wine tasting in Sonoma.
    Yes, I can roll my own potsticker skins!

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