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  1. #1
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Spoke length weirdness

    Hi guys,

    I'm about to start my first wheelbuild. I disassembled the existing wheels and kept all the spokes in 3 labeled bundles from the front wheel, rear drive side, and rear non-drive side.

    I have measured the existing spokes again and again to try to determine the size spokes I need to order, and I keep getting 308mm... on all of them. Whether they're from the front, or either rear side. This is from a wheel on an old 10 speed with a 5 speed freewheel. (27" Fiamme yellow clincher rims, large flange Campagnolo "nuovo tipo" hubs)

    Shouldn't the rear wheel spokes be different on the different sides due to the dish? I'm a little confused here. Thanks for any light you can shed on this.
    Last edited by lostarchitect; 08-20-11 at 07:30 PM.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus (http://goo.gl/TQinp)
    2000ish Colian (Colin Laing) (http://goo.gl/OgrcU)
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  2. #2
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    wide flange Campagnolo ?? big difference between wide flange and high flange... for me wide flange are track hubs so wouldn't surprise me u got equal spokes for everything.

    This is what I get using the right stuff.. if the store has 2 mms shorter it wont make that big of a difference., Enjoy. Put the numbers somewhere else tho, just to be sure.


    Hub: Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear
    Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
    Number of spokes: 36
    Crosses: 3
    Spoke length left: 294.2
    Spoke length right: 292.8


    Hub: Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front
    Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
    Number of spokes: 36
    Crosses: 3
    Spoke length left: 294
    Spoke length right: 294
    Last edited by ultraman6970; 08-20-11 at 07:24 PM.

  3. #3
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Sorry, wrong term I guess. Velobase calls it "large flange". It's these hubs: http://www.velobase.com/velobase.com...m=110&AbsPos=1

    36 hole, and 4 cross lacing.

    Where did you enter those numbers?

    edit: also I think the Fiamme yellow ergal rims are not the same ones I have... I think mine are the "professional" model, based on the labels shown on Velobase: http://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...m=107&AbsPos=5

    Thanks!
    Last edited by lostarchitect; 08-20-11 at 07:39 PM.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus (http://goo.gl/TQinp)
    2000ish Colian (Colin Laing) (http://goo.gl/OgrcU)
    2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  4. #4
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    4x? easy... based on this i would pick everything in 305. Where I got this? secret Just pull spoke calculation at google, bunch of tables and stuff, since I get 305 and u 308 I would go to another site to just be sure, 3 mm is too much difference.

    Hub: Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear
    Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
    Number of spokes: 36
    Crosses: 4
    Spoke length left: 305.4
    Spoke length right: 304


    Hub: Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front
    Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
    Number of spokes: 36
    Crosses: 4
    Spoke length left: 305.2
    Spoke length right: 305.2

  5. #5
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    U might need this too, just wonder if there is a difference in the ERD for that rim but pretty much all the stuff back in the day was 617 to 620

    Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)

    ERD: 617
    OSB: 0
    Size: 700C


    Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front

    Right flange : 67
    Left flange : 67
    Centre to right flange: 34
    Centre to left flange: 34
    Spoke hole : 2.3

    Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear

    Right flange : 67
    Left flange : 67
    Centre to right flange: 21
    Centre to left flange: 36
    Spoke hole : 2.3

  6. #6
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the help, you are awesome!

    The only thing that worries me, is the rim is not the yellow fiamme ergal, it's the 27" yellow fiamme professional, which I can't seem to find on any of the spoke calculators... hmmm...

    http://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...m=107&AbsPos=5
    Last edited by lostarchitect; 08-20-11 at 07:57 PM.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus (http://goo.gl/TQinp)
    2000ish Colian (Colin Laing) (http://goo.gl/OgrcU)
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  7. #7
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    The rear hub is likely a 120 or 122mm hub folks...hence using same size spokes all around is okay...

    Aiming for the screwdriver flat of the nipples:

    Front 4X = 305.37

    Rear Left 4X = 305.26
    Rear Right 4X = 304.42

    My guess is the original spokes had 12mm threading instead of 10mm threading...and the nipples (10mm) allowed a good 2-3mm of poke-through through the top of the nipples.

    Very common back in the 60s and 70s...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  8. #8
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Thanks, MrRabbit. Yes, rear hub is 120mm according to Velobase. The length of the threaded area on the spokes varies a little but seems to be about 10mm typically, sometimes 9mm. The nipples are about 11mm long, but they have a raised head--a dome of about 1mm. These made noticeable bumps under the rim tape.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus (http://goo.gl/TQinp)
    2000ish Colian (Colin Laing) (http://goo.gl/OgrcU)
    2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  9. #9
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Are these single wall rims taking tires and tubes?

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  10. #10
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    Are these single wall rims taking tires and tubes?

    =8-)
    Hopefully!
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus (http://goo.gl/TQinp)
    2000ish Colian (Colin Laing) (http://goo.gl/OgrcU)
    2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  11. #11
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    U can measure the ERD and the hub distances with a caliper and stick that into any spoke calculator man... Sadly I have no idea whats the ERD for that rim and is not listed in any of the spreadsheets i have. sorry.

  12. #12
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Thanks for all your help, I will try the manual measurement.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus (http://goo.gl/TQinp)
    2000ish Colian (Colin Laing) (http://goo.gl/OgrcU)
    2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  13. #13
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    If they are single wall rims - in 27" - the ERD is 620mm to as much as 622mm. That would allow spoke lengths of 307.00mm and 308.00mm using 4 cross lacing.

    =8-)

    http://www.mrrabbit.net/wheelsbyflemingapplications.php

    Grab the spreadsheet...the hubs are in the bottom third under pre-1994 hubs.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

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