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  1. #1
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    Old hub cassette issues?

    Hi

    Im thinking of buying this old but never used wheel set.
    The rear wheel hub looks like this.

    Small Hub.jpg

    Will modern day cassettes fit the hub? Or do i need to put something else on the hub before it will accept a cassette?

    Any help will be greatly appreciated Cheers

    J

  2. #2
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    This is a freewheel hub that uses a thread on, not a cassette hub.

    Limitations would be if you wanted smaller toothed cogs for higher gearing and more of a tendency to bend axles under heavy loads than a cassette hub.

  3. #3
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    As Sixty Fiver noted, it's a freewheel hub and cannot be made to accept cassettes. Depending on the distance between the locknut faces, it will accept a 5-speed freewheel (120 mm) or 6 and 7-speed freewheels (126 mm). It also has nutted axles which implies it's not a very high quality wheel and you should pay very little for it.

  4. #4
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    As Sixty Fiver noted, it's a freewheel hub and cannot be made to accept cassettes. Depending on the distance between the locknut faces, it will accept a 5-speed freewheel (120 mm) or 6 and 7-speed freewheels (126 mm). It also has nutted axles which implies it's not a very high quality wheel and you should pay very little for it.
    Since when were nutted axles the determinant for "quality" wheels?

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

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  5. #5
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    Freewheel availability is limited - interlocracing.com has a decent product range. One other potential issue is the dropout axle width for the rear wheel is probably 126mm. Modern frames generally have 130mm rear dropouts.

  6. #6
    Constant tinkerer FastJake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    Since when were nutted axles the determinant for "quality" wheels?
    Since the quick release was invented? Unless you're talking about track wheels. It's usually the case...
    Why "derailer" is the correct way to spell the gear-change mechanism: sheldonbrown.com/derailer.html

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    Since when were nutted axles the determinant for "quality" wheels?

    =8-)
    For quite a while now for multispeed hubs. I believe it was some guy named Campagnolo that came up with the quick release around 1930 and most of the industry adopted the idea pretty soon there after. After that nutted wheels were generally considered a downgrade. Track hubs are a different animal but this isn't one of them.

  8. #8
    rebmeM roineS JanMM's Avatar
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    Had a nice set of Specialized cartridge bearing hubs with nutted axles in the 80's. Used for commuting, mostly. They were the exception, of course.
    RANS V3 (steel), RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer

  9. #9
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanMM View Post
    Had a nice set of Specialized cartridge bearing hubs with nutted axles in the 80's. Used for commuting, mostly. They were the exception, of course.
    The Sanshin-made hubs? Those are the equal of Phil Wood hubs in my book. Bombproof and serviceable!
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  10. #10
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    As Sixty Fiver noted, it's a freewheel hub and cannot be made to accept cassettes. Depending on the distance between the locknut faces, it will accept a 5-speed freewheel (120 mm) or 6 and 7-speed freewheels (126 mm). It also has nutted axles which implies it's not a very high quality wheel and you should pay very little for it.
    In general, nutted axles are either lower end models or fall into the category of the aforementioned Sansin (and Suzue) cartridge bearing hubs which also came with nutted axles... in that respect I have a Sunshine / Sansin Gyromaster cartridge bearing hub that is smooth as silk and has nutted axles and the hubs on my folding tourer are vintage Suzue cartridge bearing hubs with nutted axles.

    We build custom cartridge bearing hubs and offer people the choice of quick release, nutted axles, or bolted depending on their needs and many people swap their QR axles for nutted ones as a theft deterrent. I also run a number of these hubs on different bicycles.

    I can't see any maker's mark on the OP's hub but the spacer length and modern look points to it being a 126or 130mm and if well built, these could be some very decent wheels that should come at a pretty affordable price.

  11. #11
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    The reason a QR hub with a hollow axle is superior is that a tubular axle resists bending more than a solid axle and with hubs getting wider and the bearing support being more inboard, having the strongest axle possible is a plus.

    I would not say that the Sansin / Suzue hubs are the equal of a Phil Wood or one of our Arvon hubs as both of these use a slightly different design that offers better bearing support... I have a lot of folks looking for axles to fit Sansin / Suzue hubs as they do bend whereas bending a PW / Arvon axle almost never happens.

    As far as serviceability goes the PW / Arvon freewheel hubs are among the easiest to service... the design of each is so close that upon seeing his first PW hub my partner thought someone had stolen his design as he had been making hubs for some years before he ever saw a Phil Wood.


  12. #12
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    I can tell some folks didn't quite get the gist of my question...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
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  13. #13
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Hillrider said nuts imply lower quality, not determine it. Does that answer your question?

    As for bombproof hubs...



    There can be only one.

  14. #14
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Since when did nutted axles imply a "lower quality" wheel?

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  15. #15
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Since QR wheels were de rigeur on quality bikes. In general.

    Is there some kind of pedantic point here...?

  16. #16
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Ummm folks...

    There are so many exceptions to be noted - using nutted axles to imply lower quality just simply fails...I can sit here going all the way back to the 70s and literally come up with 50+ hubs from BMX all the way up to Road which are nutted and of "higher" quality and do the same for QR hubs that are the opposite "lower quality".

    To identify "lower" quality hubs I look for:

    1. Milled finish as opposed to satin, polished, or non-milled anodized finish for alloy hubs.
    2. Dust caps with large air gaps as opposed to tight air gaps. (On some, you can practically see the bearings...)
    3. Straight-edged flanges as opposed to corner-edged or rounded-edged flanges.
    4. Simple hole drilling as opposed to counter-sunk drilling. (Toss that out for pre-60s hubs...)
    5. Obvious off-center hub shell machining when hub is rotated.
    6. Caged bearings instead of the usual 9 x 1/4 and 10 x 3/8 for standard hubs.
    7. Axles that don't appear to be of heat-treated chromoly steel but rather plain steel.
    8. Flange drilling that is off-center...Suzue was guillty of this for the hubs provided for 80s Centurions...and those were QR hubs...
    9. etc.

    =8-)

    The old saying, "Don't judge a book by its cover" for hubs is something like, "Don't judge a hub by the presence of nuts."

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  17. #17
    Senior Member jack002's Avatar
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    You assume that road bikes and BMX are the same. That is not true. Road bike wheels with nuts are either cheap or track bike wheels.
    Biking isn't a sport because anybody can do it. I can bike, you can bike. For goodness sakes, my mother can bike! You don't see her on the cover of Sports Illustrated, do you?

  18. #18
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack002 View Post
    You assume that road bikes and BMX are the same. That is not true. Road bike wheels with nuts are either cheap or track bike wheels.
    And I said that exactly where?

    =8-)

    So nutted Specialized sealed cartridge bearing hubs built onto MA-40s with DT 2.0 spokes for a light weight road tandem are cheap wheels?

    Read my sig...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    So nutted Specialized sealed cartridge bearing hubs built onto MA-40s with DT 2.0 spokes for a light weight road tandem are cheap wheels?

    No, but they are by far not typical. Out of hundreds of current nutted ROAD wheels I expect maybe 1% would be built on high quality hubs with good rims and spokes.

  20. #20
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Work on late-80s and early 90s Bianchi road bikes with 27 x 1 1/4 wheels compromised of Sansin hubs, Araya rims and Italian stainless steel spokes much Hillrider? The rear (on the yellow model I built a few of) was nutted while the front was QR. They were decent wheels.

    My point once again is: There are just too many exceptions to use "nutted axles" as a criteria for determining "lower quality" wheel.

    There are better and more reliable criteria that can be used without having to take apart the hub.

    Also should note that there was one line of bikes I worked on in the 90s that had rear Shimano STX hubs with nutted axles. Was rather surprising cause normally that was found in Altus/Alivio/Exage. Can't remember if it was GT, Bianchi, Mongoose or some other brand.

    The STX was a decent hub - not low quality in my opinion.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  21. #21
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    My point once again is: There are just too many exceptions to use "nutted axles" as a criteria for determining "lower quality" wheel.
    Every rule of thumb has exceptions, but I don't believe this one has so many it's useless. Sure, it doesn't apply to track, BMX or fixie hubs, but I've never seen any decent road or MTB hubs with nuts, so there you go.

    And anyway, its so obviously a rule of thumb; it's just the easiest thing to notice first before looking closer. Who's going to consider it the only measure of quality?

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