Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-06-11, 07:06 PM   #1
episodic
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South
Bikes: Had a Surly Cross Check - was totaled in recent accident. Sadly now just a Fuji Crosstown as a backup bike.
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm having fun - inane rear wheel dish question

You may have been following my saga, where - I - as a know nothing bike dude just loosened all my spokes on my rear wheel and started over with Zinn's book in hand (due to loosening spokes). My LBS closed and I am my own mechanic now since the next nearest one is too far to visit for anything other than a major overhaul. Over an hour away by car.

So everything has been running ok so far after I did it - 14 miles so far and no new loose spokes or wobbles.

I attempted to dish the rear wheel and true it with homemade tools.

My mind was telling me the wheel wasn't perfectly centered the frame. So I attached a zip tie to my rear triangle this evening and cut them which left about a 3 mm gap between rim and triangle with the zip tie. I then flipped my rim and now there is a 1.5-2mm gap (hard to measure - but less than 3. So it is a little over a mm off from rim to triangle on both sides.

From my prior reading - when you flip the tire and the space changes, that is a dish error. Please correct me if this is wrong.

So here are my choices, and I will defer to you guys.

1. I have a laterally and radially true rim with a 1-1.25mm dish error. It doesn't affect my brakes and if I were not OCD I'd probably never notice it. It won't harm anything - leave it alone.

2. Start over. It will harm something.


So will riding on a wheel with a slight dish error (salsa delgado cross rims 32 tires - if it matters) mess anything up.

Also can you confirm by what I'm saying that is a dish error and 'not' a frame error.

Thanks (I am learning a lot now about wheels).

Last edited by episodic; 09-06-11 at 07:40 PM.
episodic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 07:27 PM   #2
bikepro 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Allen, TX
Bikes: Look 585
Posts: 1,847
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
You can correct the problem without starting over. Just loosen the spokes on the short side and tighten them on the other side. Loosen them about 1/4 turn all the way around on one side, and tighten the same amount on the other, then recheck the dishing. You will probably need to retrue a little, but if you work in small increments the rim will stay relatively true. The hub needs to be centered on the axle.

Last edited by bikepro; 09-06-11 at 07:28 PM. Reason: speling
bikepro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 07:39 PM   #3
episodic
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South
Bikes: Had a Surly Cross Check - was totaled in recent accident. Sadly now just a Fuji Crosstown as a backup bike.
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The last sentence, the hub needs to be centered on the axle - if I have not messed with the axle, etc - and it is a new rim / hub - that should already be so? I have the same amount of exposed threads on each side of the axle.

Will it hurt anything to ride on this for the time being with the existing error? I won't have time to work on it again till this weekend?
episodic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 07:44 PM   #4
SBinNYC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 475
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Don't sweat a 1mm dish "error."
SBinNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 07:46 PM   #5
marley mission
people's champ
 
marley mission's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: joisey
Bikes:
Posts: 1,517
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
centered in the frame i think he means
marley mission is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 07:53 PM   #6
episodic
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South
Bikes: Had a Surly Cross Check - was totaled in recent accident. Sadly now just a Fuji Crosstown as a backup bike.
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ok, this hub is relatively easy to center as it is a horizontal dropout. I just roll it forward on my foot to push it all the way back in the dropout - then use the quick release.
episodic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 08:02 PM   #7
marley mission
people's champ
 
marley mission's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: joisey
Bikes:
Posts: 1,517
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
yes the hub will be centered in the frame - but will the rim be centered on the frame - this is the key

in the rear - the rim is offset on the hub to make room for the freewheel / cassette - but the rim needs to be centered with the frame

edit: bikepro had good advice on the fix too

Last edited by marley mission; 09-06-11 at 08:05 PM.
marley mission is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 08:09 PM   #8
episodic
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South
Bikes: Had a Surly Cross Check - was totaled in recent accident. Sadly now just a Fuji Crosstown as a backup bike.
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I guess I'm confused. I thought the term dish was used to describe the offset?

I'm thinking the rim must be centered over the hub. Centering over the hub (if I have not messed with the axle) should result in the rim being centered in the frame. What I'm needing to know now is should I be overly concerned about a wheel failure with this small amount of dish offset? I'm not experienced to say, hey this is fine for now till I can fix it, or I can ride that till I fix it. Does dish errors mean the wheel will fail more readily, etc?

What I'm thinking is that I'm going to order the cheap park dishing tool - before I proceed. It is possible my homemade method is off.



Quote:
Originally Posted by marley mission View Post
yes the hub will be centered in the frame - but will the rim be centered on the frame - this is the key

in the rear - the rim is offset on the hub to make room for the freewheel / cassette - but the rim needs to be centered with the frame

edit: bikepro had good advice on the fix too
episodic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 08:25 PM   #9
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
Posts: 3,190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay here I go for the thousandth time:

Dish refers to two things:

1. As an adjective - the appearance of "dish" or what can be a bowl shape via the spokes when you hold a wheel horizontally. ALL dual flanged hub equipped wheels will have this.

Symmetrical wheels (most fronts and single speed rears) will have the same "appearance" of dish on both sides.
Asymmetrical wheels (most disc brake fronts and multi-speed rears) will have differing "appearances of dish on both sides.

Best way to describe the "appearance" of dish is to use the terms "deeper" or "shallower".


2. As a verb - the act of centering the rim between the ends of the lock nuts of the hub.

This is the technical description of "dish". A wheel is considered properly dished when the rim is exactly centered between the ends of the locknuts of the hub - or the ends of the CNC axle ends as commonly found on sealed cartridge bearing hubs.

If the wheel is not dished - it is literally considered to be just that - "not dished" or "off dish" or "needs improvement."


Here are the most important things to remember overall:

1. There appearance-wise is no "more" or "less" dish. Either a wheel has an appearance of dish and can range from shallow to deep - or shallower to deeper. You can also describe use angles...
2. Technically all wheels properly built are dished.
3. On a technical basis there is no such thing as a zero-dish or no-dish wheels. The closest thing are single flange wheels that don't have the "appearance" of dish - but they still have to be dished in the technical sense.

=8-)
__________________
4000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 08:25 PM   #10
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Edit: I know nothing and my post was irrelevant.
himespau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 08:27 PM   #11
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
Posts: 3,190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To the OP:

Offsets in dual flange hubs are what causes the appearance of "dish" in most wheels.

In your case though, you are trying to dish the wheel - therefore you need to center your rim between the ends of the locknuts of the hub. Ignore appearances...

=9-)
__________________
4000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 08:44 PM   #12
episodic
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South
Bikes: Had a Surly Cross Check - was totaled in recent accident. Sadly now just a Fuji Crosstown as a backup bike.
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think I'm understanding my confusion now. I'm talking about the process of 'dishing'. I understand that drive side spokes are shorter requiring the bowl shape. I'm not confused by that.

My main thing I was wanting to know:

1. Was my test that I outlined above indicating that I indeed have a wheel that needs 'dishing' ? To refresh, I attached a zip tie to 1 side of my chain stay of my frame. I cut it so there was a 3mm gap between the zip tie end and the rim when the wheel was all the way into the dropout properly mounted. Upon flipping the wheel in the dropout the gap was 1.5 to 2 mm. So from my totally unexperienced self - it seems that the rim is in need of 'dishing' (like with a dishing tool). To be succinct - as I spin the wheel - the gap remains constant on both sides indicating what I believe is a lateral true.

2. Is the amount of error I have a worry? Meaning - I doubt most ppl would even notice. Is it dangerous? Will I cause anything to wear out faster?
episodic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 08:51 PM   #13
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
Posts: 3,190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There are several problems you are causing when using the on bike method:

1. One you need to place the wheel all the way back in the dropouts to ensure you are testing from the same position every tiime.

2. You need to rotate the axle to compensate for variations - and note the extent to which the rims moves one way and moves the other.

3. THEN you flip the wheel and do the same exact test from the same exact position with the same exact axle rotation and comparison.

...even then...you might get it within a millimeter. Stands and dishing tools simply provide a more controlled environment where you can get it spot on.

So if you settle for a millimeter...then so be it. It won't kill you...

=8-)
__________________
4000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 09:03 PM   #14
episodic
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South
Bikes: Had a Surly Cross Check - was totaled in recent accident. Sadly now just a Fuji Crosstown as a backup bike.
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Your #1, I'm making sure I've done.
Your #2 - when it is installed the right way, the rim remains equidistant from the feeler (zip tie) - indicating what I'm thinking you guys call lateral true. When I flip it, it remains equidistant from the feeler again - however the total distance is slightly different (I'm thinking it is right between 1-2mm). This indicates lateral true again. My problem I'm guessing is that I do indeed have a rim that needs to be 'dished' further.

Thank you for letting me know that if I settle, not dangerous or detrimental. I'm about to order the 'wheelbuilding' book I see recommended so much. This fascinates me. I'm just ordered a dishing gauge. Next check I'll get a stand. Is any stand cheaper than the TS-2 worth it? Thanks for understanding 150$ plus is a little much for alot of ppl. Also, tensiometer or no?





Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
There are several problems you are causing when using the on bike method:

1. One you need to place the wheel all the way back in the dropouts to ensure you are testing from the same position every tiime.

2. You need to rotate the axle to compensate for variations - and note the extent to which the rims moves one way and moves the other.

3. THEN you flip the wheel and do the same exact test from the same exact position with the same exact axle rotation and comparison.

...even then...you might get it within a millimeter. Stands and dishing tools simply provide a more controlled environment where you can get it spot on.

So if you settle for a millimeter...then so be it. It won't kill you...

=8-)
episodic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 09:11 PM   #15
Al1943
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
Posts: 9,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you have a good stand you really don't need a dishing gauge. You just need the patience to flip the wheel on the stand as many times as needed to confirm that the rim is centered (properly dished).
Al1943 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 09:26 PM   #16
episodic
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South
Bikes: Had a Surly Cross Check - was totaled in recent accident. Sadly now just a Fuji Crosstown as a backup bike.
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al1943 View Post
If you have a good stand you really don't need a dishing gauge. You just need the patience to flip the wheel on the stand as many times as needed to confirm that the rim is centered (properly dished).
I've looked at videos of lots of ppl truing wheels. I never see them talk about dish on the stand. How would you tell from the feelers on the stand that the wheel was dished or not? It looks like you move the feelers in and out, and I'm not comprehending how you'd tell the dish from that.
episodic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-11, 09:32 PM   #17
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
Posts: 3,190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al1943 View Post
If you have a good stand you really don't need a dishing gauge. You just need the patience to flip the wheel on the stand as many times as needed to confirm that the rim is centered (properly dished).
n++;

What Al1943 said....save the $40for more important stuff such as spoke wrenches...might as well get the whole color set....and quality PAIRS of cone wrenches from 13mm to 15mm. Having a single 17mm and a single 19mm wouldn't hurt either.

By the el-cheapo combination flat and phillip bits at the OSH counter...using the flat side, create a needle point of 1mm on one...and 3mm on the other. Use the long one for lacing...and the short one for initial nipple take up using a slow speed drill.

There's the arsenal you can build with the money saved on forgoing the dishing tool.

=8-)


=8-)
__________________
4000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-11, 01:37 AM   #18
marley mission
people's champ
 
marley mission's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: joisey
Bikes:
Posts: 1,517
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
A wheel is considered properly dished when the rim is exactly centered between the ends of the locknuts of the hub - or the ends of the CNC axle ends as commonly found on sealed cartridge bearing hubs.
much better stated
marley mission is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-11, 03:25 PM   #19
davidad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 4,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
On the rear I true the wheel and tension it first and then take care of centering it between the dropouts. I only use the nondrive (left) side spokes for this operation. Tightening them moves the rim to the left and loosing moves it to the right. 1/4 turn may solve your problem and center the rim.
davidad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-11, 07:32 PM   #20
Al1943
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
Posts: 9,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by episodic View Post
I've looked at videos of lots of ppl truing wheels. I never see them talk about dish on the stand. How would you tell from the feelers on the stand that the wheel was dished or not? It looks like you move the feelers in and out, and I'm not comprehending how you'd tell the dish from that.
With a dual caliper stand like a TS-2 you can simply reverse the wheel on the stand and see if the rim's braking surface moves farther left or farther right. Once the rim is centered the rim will be equal distant from both calipers regardless of which way you mount the wheel. If you have a fixed single caliper stand you can reverse the wheel on the stand to see if the braking surface moves toward or away from the caliper. Adjust the spokes until the rim is exactly in the same position regardless of which way you mount the wheel. The caliper must remain fixed in position relative to the stand.
This can be done while making final lateral true adjustments.
With light weight rear road wheels the final dish and lateral true adjustments should be made with the tire fully inflated to riding pressure. The asymmetrical spoke tension of a rear wheel can cause a shift in dish with the change in tire pressure.
Al1943 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-11, 07:46 PM   #21
LarDasse74
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Grid Reference, SK
Bikes: I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.
Posts: 3,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The truing stands I have always used in shops has been the Park Professional, and it can actually be used to get correct dish without removal or flipping of the wheel... however this is not guaranteed to be perfect and has to be checked against a known perfect wheel. Luckily, you can get a wheel perfect by removing and flipping in the stand, even before it is set up.

OP: Do you have a tension gauge? Correct tension can be difficult to 'feel.' I think a lot of inexperienced hands don't know how tight a properly tensioned wheel is supposed to feel, and so many wheels are insufficiently tensioned, which usually leads to poor wheel durability and eventual spoke breakage..
LarDasse74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:28 PM.