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  1. #1
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    Bottom bracket help - what's this piece for?

    Ok bike mechs - I need your help. Normally when I take something apart I take a picture of it to know how to put it back together, but this particular night over a month ago, well I thought I would take a picture "tomorrow" but of course life happened for a period of 5 weeks and I've now forgotten how this thing was put together.

    It's a simple loose bearing "Hatta P3 H-3" bottom bracket off a Raleigh Technium...nearly identical to this one:
    http://diegomayra.blogspot.com/2010/...-day-bike.html

    Ok, the bottom bracket is not hard to figure out. Here's a photo of the disassembled Hatta:
    http://imgur.com/M22am

    I didn't show the 22 loose (!) bearings in the photo because I didn't want to lose any.

    Questions:

    1) Should I replace the loose bearings with a bearing+ring setup? I'm really on a super-tight budget, btw - this bike is just to be an office kept beater bike once (if) rebuilt.

    2) Main question - Where do the little black plastic rings go? I'm guessing they fit on the pedal side of the spindle rings but on the inside of the threaded bracket cups..but I simply cannot get them to fit inside that hole. Do I even need these things? What are they?

    3) Can I replace this entire setup with something like this?
    http://www.crowcycleco.com/bicycle-components/bottom-bracket/neco-bottom-bracket-square-taper-jis-68mm-x-110-5mm.html
    or should I just reassemble this thing since I have it and it's fine other than being in pieces?

    I will take pictures of disassembly next time !

    Thanks for any help
    Dukester
    Last edited by dukes909; 09-06-11 at 09:07 PM. Reason: typo!

  2. #2
    Noob mikezs's Avatar
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    1) Bearing/ring setups will have less bearings, so if you don't already have one, it's better to go with fully loose bearings for longevity and reliability.

    2) The black rings are a dust seals, you are correct in where they go, but you may need to mount them from the inside before fitting, or push them on from the outside after fitting. They're going to be a a tight fit (which is why you're having a hard time) but I'm not familiar with that specific bottom bracket.

    3) You can replace the whole thing with a sealed unit. Sheldon says you should be replacing the whole thing because you've taken the fixed cup out of your frame already, but if budget says you cant, then it won't hurt (but you might have to spend more in the long run). Make sure you get the right size if you do replace!

    Another thing to note is that these axles usually do go a certain way round; one side is usually longer than the other. This may not be the case for you, but make sure you measure and work it out first. Again, Sheldon's site may help you out with this.

    I'd personally be getting a semi good quality (perhaps more than $10) sealed unit like you suggested as it will be much less hassle (repacking and tightening these BB's isn't fun) in the future and will (in theory) last longer. You should at least be getting new bearings if you decide to repack, and make sure you get those dust seals on.

  3. #3
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply! So - I want to replace this unit now... How do I figure out what the threading is and what will fit?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikezs View Post
    1) Bearing/ring setups will have less bearings, so if you don't already have one, it's better to go with fully loose bearings for longevity and reliability.

    2) The black rings are a dust seals, you are correct in where they go, but you may need to mount them from the inside before fitting, or push them on from the outside after fitting. They're going to be a a tight fit (which is why you're having a hard time) but I'm not familiar with that specific bottom bracket.

    3) You can replace the whole thing with a sealed unit. Sheldon says you should be replacing the whole thing because you've taken the fixed cup out of your frame already, but if budget says you cant, then it won't hurt (but you might have to spend more in the long run). Make sure you get the right size if you do replace!

    Another thing to note is that these axles usually do go a certain way round; one side is usually longer than the other. This may not be the case for you, but make sure you measure and work it out first. Again, Sheldon's site may help you out with this.

    I'd personally be getting a semi good quality (perhaps more than $10) sealed unit like you suggested as it will be much less hassle (repacking and tightening these BB's isn't fun) in the future and will (in theory) last longer. You should at least be getting new bearings if you decide to repack, and make sure you get those dust seals on.

  4. #4
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    IMO there's no good reason not to reuse the BB you have. Those cartridge BBs are usually significantly heavier, BTW.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikezs View Post
    1)Another thing to note is that these axles usually do go a certain way round; one side is usually longer than the other. This may not be the case for you, but make sure you measure and work it out first. Again, Sheldon's site may help you out with this.
    Or you can just trial-fit it (no need to tighten the cranks on; just slip them on) and look at the distance between the back of the cranks and the chainstays. If you have it the wrong way round, one gap wil be larger. You're better off figuring it out than throwing your hands up. A fillet of grease in each cup will hold the balls in place, it's really not hard unless you have trouble shifting the cups in the first place.

  5. #5
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    This is what I thought also, since this was just going to be a "beater" bike anyway. One to get out of the office with occasionally. Again - any idea how to get these dust caps back in there? And it looks like I made a cardinal sin of taking both cups out, but it was really really dirty in there prior to disassembly and cleaning.

  6. #6
    Noob mikezs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukes909 View Post
    This is what I thought also, since this was just going to be a "beater" bike anyway. One to get out of the office with occasionally. Again - any idea how to get these dust caps back in there? And it looks like I made a cardinal sin of taking both cups out, but it was really really dirty in there prior to disassembly and cleaning.
    If it's not going to get any proper milage on it, then just reuse the old one! I thought you meant you were going to commute to the office on it.

    For dust seals, they look like they either go directly onto the axle (you can see where they've rubbed on it) or get wedged between it and the cup.

    Not a huge problem that you've taken both out; they're self tightening (one should have a reverse thread).

  7. #7
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    Would the little black rings go on the outside (pedal side) of the cups? They are damn impossible to get into the holes on either side...I wish I had taken a picture!

  8. #8
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Their position corresponds to the shiny bits on the BB spindle.

    It shouldn't be too hard to figure out. How many possibilities are there?

  9. #9
    Noob mikezs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukes909 View Post
    Would the little black rings go on the outside (pedal side) of the cups? They are damn impossible to get into the holes on either side...I wish I had taken a picture!
    Yea, they'll be to stop the dust getting into the BB from the pedal side. I'd have a go fitting on the axle each way round (they have a 45 degree angled corner on one side) and see which way looks like it should go. I'd bet it goes inward to stop rubbing on the cup

  10. #10
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    Right - I understand they're either fit from the inside or the outside of the cups. Thing is how to get them to stay there. Do I need a press to push them into the cup? If I put them loose inside the cup the bearings won't go in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    Their position corresponds to the shiny bits on the BB spindle.

    It shouldn't be too hard to figure out. How many possibilities are there?

  11. #11
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    Thanks - Ok, that's what I thought. I'll have to get access to a press or something to have them fit snugly.

  12. #12
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    WTF with the press?!

    I'm sure you need no such thing.

    Dude, these are only for weather sealing, they're not bloody hatch grommets on a space capsule.

  13. #13
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    I just remember having a time getting them out - they had to have been pushed in with considerable force. But ok.

  14. #14
    Noob mikezs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukes909 View Post
    I just remember having a time getting them out - they had to have been pushed in with considerable force. But ok.
    I'd put them on last, and they are probably pretty tight so they don't move which would have made it hard to get the cups out when you disassembled it.

  15. #15
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    Got it. Thanks!

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=Kimmo;13189748]IMO there's no good reason not to reuse the BB you have. Those cartridge BBs are usually significantly heavier, BTW.



    You've got to be kidding!

  17. #17
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Or just leave them out. For occasional use on a beater, it's not going to be an issue.

  18. #18
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    Ok, IF I was going to replace this with a sealed cartridge unit - how do I find one that is the correct threading / size? Mine is marked 3P, which from Sheldon's site I see: 68mm 119mm length.

  19. #19
    bike whisperer Kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidad View Post
    You've got to be kidding!
    About the cheap ones? Not a word. Something like 100g last time I checked.

  20. #20
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    If the closest cartridge BB I can find is a 118.5 or a 120 instead of the 119 that I currently have, will those still work?

  21. #21
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukes909 View Post
    If the closest cartridge BB I can find is a 118.5 or a 120 instead of the 119 that I currently have, will those still work?
    Short answer: yeah, and probably best to err on the long side. I tried to find a 3P to dry-assemble and compare to some cartridge models, since there's more to the question than just the length, but we don't have any 3Ps here. Billions of other ones, though. We could probably make a small black hole with the number of old spindles we've got gathering dust here.

  22. #22
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    I gave up on the little black dust rings. If I put them on the inside between the bearings and the cup, the bearings would not go in. If I put the dust seals on the outside (pedal side) of the cups, I couldn't "press" them in tight enough to stay. This will have to do until I scrape together some money together to replace it with a cartridge unit - if I can find a match... thanks for the help!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
    WTF with the press?!

    I'm sure you need no such thing.

    Dude, these are only for weather sealing, they're not bloody hatch grommets on a space capsule.
    Fuji S10S, Trek 1.1

    "The bicycle, in the hands of a novice, is as alert and acute as a spirit-level in the detecting of delicate and vanishing shades of difference in these matters. It notices a rise where your untrained eye would not observe that one existed; it notices any decline which water will run down." -Mark Twain, "Taming the Bicycle"

  24. #24
    Senior Member bikeman715's Avatar
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    The seals goes on the outside of the cups , you just need to press them in and they will stay there .
    bikeman715

  25. #25
    Senior Member dukes909's Avatar
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    I wish it were as easy as just pressing them in. Maybe the tapered end has worn away over time but they simply won't press in.

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