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Thread: Wheels, again

  1. #1
    Ride More seedsbelize's Avatar
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    Wheels, again

    I disassembled an old wheel today, with the intention of putting it back together a time or two, before launching into the real thing. When I was finished, I had 19 spokes in the NDS pile, and 17 in the DS pile. So I started comparing lengths, and could see no difference between the two piles. Is it possible that this freewheel doesn't require dishing?
    7 spd, I believe.

    Life is is too short to care what others think of your bike.

  2. #2
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Either it was a machine built wheel - corners cut...

    Or a hand-builder got lazy and couldn't be bothered to spec 2 lengths of spokes...

    Can be gotten away with with 5 / 6 speed wheels...and some luck with 7 / 8 speed wheels.

    Still....there's a right way to do it.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

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    If it's a 7-speed on a 130 or 135 mm OLD hub the spoke lengths can be the same since the dish is very minor. If it's a 126 mm hub there should really be a spoke length difference.

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    Ride More seedsbelize's Avatar
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    I'll measure it tomorrow. The non drive side of the hub is the same width as the threaded part on the drive side. Symmetrical.
    And it's old and it's cheap. I have no idea where I even got it. Laced to a Rigida rim.

    Life is is too short to care what others think of your bike.

  5. #5
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seedsbelize View Post
    I'll measure it tomorrow. The non drive side of the hub is the same width as the threaded part on the drive side. Symmetrical.
    And it's old and it's cheap. I have no idea where I even got it. Laced to a Rigida rim.
    Probably an old 122mm 5 speed hub where it doesn't really make a difference...

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

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    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
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    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  6. #6
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    If it's a 7-speed on a 130 or 135 mm OLD hub the spoke lengths can be the same since the dish is very minor. If it's a 126 mm hub there should really be a spoke length difference.
    Dish is dish.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  7. #7
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    using two different length spokes for a wheel is sometimes necessary, sometimes it's not...

    dishing is only necessary, and therefore different spoke lengths employed (maybe), when a hub's centerline between the flanges, when mounted, is not in line with the centerline of the bike's frame. dishing would then be called for, and possibly longer spokes on one side than the other, in order to bring it in line.

  8. #8
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
    using two different length spokes for a wheel is sometimes necessary, sometimes it's not...

    dishing is only necessary, and therefore different spoke lengths employed (maybe), when a hub's centerline between the flanges, when mounted, is not in line with the centerline of the bike's frame. dishing would then be called for, and possibly longer spokes on one side than the other, in order to bring it in line.
    You are confusing the two aspects of dish...

    Dishing is required of any wheel - centering the rims between the locknuts of the hub. (Verb and techincal)

    When the hub flange offsets are asymmetrical, then the "appearance" of "dish" on each side will be different - and result in two different spoke lengths. (Adjective and non-technical)

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    Dish is dish.
    Technically correct but not in common parlance. "Dish" is usually implies asymetric rim location over the hub flanges. A wheel with an OLD great enough and an driveside off-set small enough that the rim can be completely or nearly centered over the hub flanges (or a front wheel for that matter) is not thought of as having "dish".

  10. #10
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    Technically correct but not in common parlance. "Dish" is usually implies asymetric rim location over the hub flanges. A wheel with an OLD great enough and an driveside off-set small enough that the rim can be completely or nearly centered over the hub flanges (or a front wheel for that matter) is not thought of as having "dish".
    "Dish"

    Two part definition - covered in depth by none other than Sheldon Brown himself:

    A. As an adjective - the appearance of "dish".

    Flip a front wheel in the horizontal plane - the shape formed by the hub - spokes - and rim can be loosely described as a "dish". Location of flanges determine how deep or shallow the "dish" is. Most fronts are symmetrical - the same "dish" appears either way you flip the wheel.

    Flip a rear multi-geared wheel. The appearance of "dish" will be asymmetrical. One side will be deep - the other side shallow. In some cases, the asymmetry will be so extreme - there is no need to flip the wheel - just one view as a whole can be described as a "dish" - and a very deep one.

    [This is the non-technical description of dish - which most people talk about...]


    B. As a verb - the act of "dishing" or determining the "dish" of a wheel.

    Whether a wheel is a front symmetrical wheel, a multi-geared rear wheel, a disc front wheel, or a single speed symmetrical rear wheel - all wheels properly built and used in the typical bicycle frame must be dished.

    -- The rim must be CENTERED between the axle lock nuts or axle end caps. --

    That is exactly what a dishing tool tests for, and what flipping a wheel in a truing stand tests for. They test for whether or not the wheel is "dished" - rim centered between the lock nuts or end caps of the axle.


    Important points:

    1. While most people will casually use the terms "more dished" or "less dished", is it actually better to say, "off-dish", "dished", "more symmetrically dished" or "more asymmetrically dished" or "need improvement."

    2. All properly built single-flange wheels (Aerospoke for example) must be "dished" even though they don't have the appearance of "dish".

    3. All properly built dual-flange wheels must be "dished" and will have the appearance of "dish".

    4. There is no such thing as a "zero dish" or "no dish" wheel for our typical and traditional symmetrically aligned bicycle frames that we commonly use.

    (There has been a manufacturer in the past though that has made asymmetrical frames...in the UK if I remember correctly.)


    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    4. There is no such thing as a "zero dish" or "no dish" wheel for our typical and traditional symmetrically aligned bicycle frames that we commonly use.
    Perhaps, but aren't the 140 or even 160mm OLD hubs and dropouts used on tandems capable of providing zero dish rear wheels, i.e. the rim is centered BOTH between the locknuts and the hub flanges?

  12. #12
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    Perhaps, but aren't the 140 or even 160mm OLD hubs and dropouts used on tandems capable of providing zero dish rear wheels, i.e. the rim is centered BOTH between the locknuts and the hub flanges?
    If properly built it is STILL a dished wheel...

    1. It'll have the appearance of "dish" on each side. (non-technical)
    2. It'll be "dished" as a whole - the rim will be centered between the lock nuts or alloy end caps of the axle. (technical)

    All wheels properly built for our traditional bicycle frames, BMX, MTB, Tandem, you name it, are "dished".

    Even an Aerospoke wheel (which does not have the "appearance" of "dish") must still be "dished" to be considered a properly constructed wheel - rim centered between the lock nuts of the hub within.

    If you still have difficulty getting a grasp on this - just simply pick up a "dishing tool" or "dish stick". Answering the question "What does it do?" is all it takes to get a grasp of the concept.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  13. #13
    Senior Member gyozadude's Avatar
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    I think I now understand the concept well - as well as I've always understood it. And I think others do, too. And I concede yours, Mrrabbit, is perhaps the correct use of the term "dish" as applied to centering rims over the locknuts on the axle of a hub. But that said, I also understand precisely what most folks mean when they loosely use the term "dish" to refer to what Hillrider describes as just the asymmetrical offset from center OLN. :-)
    Yes, I can roll my own potsticker skins!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
    If you still have difficulty getting a grasp on this - just simply pick up a "dishing tool" or "dish stick". Answering the question "What does it do?" is all it takes to get a grasp of the concept.
    I've got a dishing tool and i know how to use it. Our problem seems to be with semantics not technology. I'll repeat what I asked above, if you have a wheel where the rim is symetrically centered over BOTH the locknuts AND the hub flanges is it still "dished" by your definition? How about all (non disc) front wheels? Are they dished?

  15. #15
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyozadude View Post
    I think I now understand the concept well - as well as I've always understood it. And I think others do, too. And I concede yours, Mrrabbit, is perhaps the correct use of the term "dish" as applied to centering rims over the locknuts on the axle of a hub. But that said, I also understand precisely what most folks mean when they loosely use the term "dish" to refer to what Hillrider describes as just the asymmetrical offset from center OLN. :-)
    Of course, and I've been guilty in the past of casually using terms that confuse things when chatting with folks informally about dish in person and online.

    However, this is Bicycle Mechanics and those of us giving advice on wheels should really be making an effort to explain dish correctly to those asking questions - Sheldon Brown did the same as part of getting "newbies" started off with DIY wheelbuilding.

    ...and he did a rather good job of it.

    In other words, in this forum we really should be leaving the term "dished more" to the social beer drinkers on Friday and instead get in the habit of using the terms "more asymmetrical appearance" or something when discussing real multi-geared wheels.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

  16. #16
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
    I've got a dishing tool and i know how to use it. Our problem seems to be with semantics not technology. I'll repeat what I asked above, if you have a wheel where the rim is symetrically centered over BOTH the locknuts AND the hub flanges is it still "dished" by your definition? How about all (non disc) front wheels? Are they dished?
    Properly built symmetrical dual-flange front wheels as I've already stated will have both aspects of "dish".

    1. Appearance of a "bowl" (dish) on both sides of the wheel - flipped either way horizontally.
    2. Rim centered between lock nuts (dish / dished).

    It's with the use of a single-flange hub equipped wheels (such as the Aerospoke) that you can lose the appearance of dish - but as noted already, the rim technically still has to be dished (centered).

    The exception to single-flange hubbed wheels is of course the Pino Marinoni bulb shaped aero disc wheel that he created for a track bike sometime back. (Picture is somewhere on the CR website...)

    =8-)

    As a side note, note that an Aerospoke type wheel for rear multi-speed setup also loses the "appearance" of dish as well...but still must be dished.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

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    Right or wrong, I think most people consider a wheel to have "dish" or be "dished", or have more or less dish, when the rim doesn't center over the flanges and the spoke angles are noticably different on one side than the other. Right or wrong, it's much easier to go along with that thinking, rather than trying to educate them and losing control of the situation.

    When you talk "bike" with your buddies (and this happens in LBS with employees too), it's always like, "Wow! that wheels got some dish"- when seeing some of the more noticeable offsets. I ain't gonna try to educate them- they ain't gonna get it anyway, or even care. I know what they're talking about and I don't really want to be "the know it all jerk."

    I think the terminology is flawed from the get-go. The automotive industry uses the term "offset" to describe the relationship of the mounting flange to the rim centerline. They have one flange but we have two, so we could say "offset left or offset right," or whatever- but dish? I'll save "dish" for something I cook in, or for the occasion when I see a hot babe- "Wow! What a dish!

  18. #18
    Senior Member mrrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reddog3 View Post
    Right or wrong, I think most people consider a wheel to have "dish" or be "dished", or have more or less dish, when the rim doesn't center over the flanges and the spoke angles are noticably different on one side than the other. Right or wrong, it's much easier to go along with that thinking, rather than trying to educate them and losing control of the situation.

    When you talk "bike" with your buddies (and this happens in LBS with employees too), it's always like, "Wow! that wheels got some dish"- when seeing some of the more noticeable offsets. I ain't gonna try to educate them- they ain't gonna get it anyway, or even care. I know what they're talking about and I don't really want to be "the know it all jerk."

    I think the terminology is flawed from the get-go. The automotive industry uses the term "offset" to describe the relationship of the mounting flange to the rim centerline. They have one flange but we have two, so we could say "offset left or offset right," or whatever- but dish? I'll save "dish" for something I cook in, or for the occasion when I see a hot babe- "Wow! What a dish!

    1. Yep, that's what happens in casual conversations...doesn't make it right though. (Even I fall into that...)
    2. Yep, I think it was none other than John over at Sheldon Brown who in the past raised the question that perhaps "dish" was the wrong word to use. Valid question...
    3. I prefer the terms symmetric, asymmetric and offset. They're clear, definitive, and too the point.

    As I've stated already, this is Bicycle Mechanics...so those of us giving advice on wheels should try a little harder to demonstrate that we know what something is - and how it works - to help newbies get on the right track. It's not that hard....

    Just tell 'em flat out - for wheel building / truing purposes - dishing is centering the rim between the lock nuts of the hub. It's the technical answer and the correct one to focus on. It's pertinent to the task at hand.

    Avoids the confusion of the appearance side of things...cause some will confuse one for the other.

    =8-)
    4000+ wheels built since 1984...

    Disclaimer:

    1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
    2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
    3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
    4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
    5. My all time favorite book is:

    Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

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