blaronn

I'm building a wheelset and am stuck on the rear wheel between having it true & round or having even tension. It seems as though it's not possible to get both trueness and even tension. The front wheel (24h radial) didn't present this problem and went together quickly and easily.

Here's what I've got:

REAR
- Rim = Velocity A23 28h
- Hub = BikeHubStore SuperLight 28h
- Drive side spokes = DT Swiss Competition 2.0/1.8/2.0
- Non drive side spokes = DT Swiss Revolution 2.0/1.5/2.0
- Drive side nips = DT Swiss brass 2.0mm x 12mm
- Non drive side nips = DT Swiss Aluminum 2.0mm x 12mm
- Lacing = radial

FRONT
- Rim = Velocity A23 24h
- Hub = BikeHubStore Ultralight 24h
- Spokes = DT Swiss Revolution 2.0/1.5/2.0
- Nips = DT Swiss Aluminum 2.0mm x 12mm
- Lacing = 2x

All parts are brand spanking new.

Tension meter = Park TM-1
Truing stand = Park TS-2

Also, I used anti-sieze on spoke threads and grease on the rim eyelets, and I've stress-relieved many times.

I can pretty easily get the rear wheel properly dished, laterally true, and radially true, but after I start evening up the tension it just makes the wheel wobbly again, especially at the seam. I've tried adjusting the tension at several stages of the build but it always does the same thing.

The wheel is nice & true right now and here's what the tension looks like:

DS (kgf) NDS (kgf)
...94......~48
...94......~48
...77.......56
...94.......52
..105......~35
..117......~40
...70.......88 <-- two spokes adjacent to the seam
...77.......52
..117......~35
..105......~45
...85.......66
...94.......52
..105......~48
...94......~48

(The ~ numbers are only estimates because the TM-1 Conversion Table doesn't go this low.)


I think I've read just about everything out there (Sheldon, Musson, Schraner, Mike T, Barnett's chapter 17, tons of BikeForums threads, and a couple others but I haven't found any tricks that would solve my problem.

Anybody have tips or tricks on how to get the tension even without losing all semblance of trueness?

P.S. - There needs to be a wheelbuilding subforum here, especially since the term "wheelbuilding" isn't even searchable.

well biked

First: yes, those tensions are all over the map. Not acceptable at all.

My guess is that there are several things going on that are causing your problems, but there's one thing that you said that sticks out to me. You said you got the wheel round and true and then started working on even tension, and when this was done, the wheel was way out of true, etc.

What I do is work in very small increments as I bring the tensions up, checking the tensions, lateral true, roundness, dish, etc. as I do. When things are very close to being done, there's not any one thing that's very far out, including absolute or relative tensions. So as I fine tune the wheel, it ends up round, true, etc. and the tensions of like spokes are close enough to equal to be acceptable. No wheel will ever come out with perfectly even tension of like spokes, but you probably already know that. But the closer the better, of course.

Anyway, I think the basis of your problem is that you are completing one aspect of the wheel (round, true, dish) before you become concerned about even tension. That won't work, you gotta do it all together, in small increments, never letting any one area get too far off. In my experience, anyway.

FWIW, I'm not a production wheelbuilder. I do build wheels, sometimes for customers, and they're nice wheels. I love doing it. But there are others here who will chime in who've built a lot more wheels than I have. They will likely have more insight.

AEO

I've always found velocity rims to be sub-par in terms of how round they are at the seam.

I would sacrifice up to 0.5mm in trueness each way to try and get the spoke tensions more even.
clearly, there is a bit of a dip at the seam, so you might have to sacrifice up to 1mm of roundness there.
You will want a minimum of 100kgf on the drive side, no more than 120kgf.

Also, once you mount and fully inflate a tire on the wheel, the spoke tension will drop around 10~20kgf.

deacon mark

I built a Velocity oc 23 and it came out perfect this is a mystery. One thing to check is are you sure you have the wheel laced correct and is this the OC rear? Sounds basic but things can happen in the lacing. First thing I would do I start all over and rebuild. Make sure you count the turns on the spoke/nipples so they are equal before you begin to bring the wheel up to tension. Just for help what is the number of cross on the rear and what are your spoke lengths? The DS will have a higher tension even with the offest rim and a bit more tension on the non offset ( will not be as equal). Also lay the rim out on a nice flat surface and see how true it is, take some measurements around just to check. My guess is that if you start over you will get the puppy fine. I am really interested in how this build comes out since I really like Velocity rims and they are good wheels I built. Good choice on the 24 radial front I did the same thing and I like this set up for the from. I used a Fusion rim for the front.

Zef

Just wondering why you chose to use a mix of aluminum and brass nipples. I understand that some might be looking to achieve lighter weight or a certain color pattern with color anodized aluminum nipples but for practical purposes in my experience aluminum nipples just lead to problems down the road. They become friable and break...usually during a ride. With a 28 spoke count rear wheel this can be a problem as the rim will be significantly out of true when this happens and may cause the wheel to rub the frame even if you can open your brake caliper wide enough.

If you are going to detension/deconstruct to start the build over, I would suggest replacing the aluminum nipples on the rear wheel with brass ones to avoid future problems with the finished product.

-j

Al1943

I've been building wheels with DT Swiss aluminum alloy nipples for more than 10 years with absolutely no problems. Use them with confidence, unless you ride in salty conditions.
If you have problems rounding off nipple shoulders try using a close fitting spoke wrench that holds all 4 shoulders like the newer Park or Spokey wrenches. Lubricating spoke threads with oil or spoke prep will help.

blaronn

I guess I wouldn't exactly say that I left tensioning for the end. Here's a more detailed look at what I did:

1) Laced the wheel 2x
2) Used a home-made nipple driver with a 3mm point to get all nipples close to each other
3) Did rounds of tightening nipples one revolution at a time until the wheel no longer rattled when shaking the rim
4) Tightened DS nips evenly to dish the wheel within a couple mm's
5) Trued the wheel laterally within one mm or so
6) Trued the wheel radially within one mm or so
7) Tightened all nips evenly to bring tension up a bit (maybe to 50% of what they are now)
8) Stress relieved by grasping parallel spokes and tortioning on my knees
9) Evened out tension on DS spokes
10) Evened out tension on NDS spokes
11) Repeated steps 4-6 and 8-10 a couple more times

Maybe I added too much tension on step #7 and shouldn't have gotten the lateral & radial truing so close on the first pass?



Good to know. Yeah, the rim definitely flattens out and skips a bit sideways at the rim. Hard to do anything about that without screwing up tension a lot.


I asked Velocity about A23 tension recommendations a few days ago. Here's their reply: "We build all of our wheels to between 110-130 kgf". Also asked BikeHubStore about hub limits and they said "most people build them up with standard tensions in the 100-120 range". So I was targeting trying to get all DS spokes in the 115-130 range.


That's kinda how I felt after finishing the front wheel so easily!


Yeah, pretty sure it's laced correctly although I'm not positive what you mean by "OC rear". The spoke holes are directional (DS holes are slightly offset to one side and NDS holes are slightly offset to the other) but the rim is symmetrical.


I believe the nip driver should have taken care of this for me.


Laced 2x rear. DS spokes are 286mm and NDS are 290mm.


A couple reasons - looks and weight. I've seen enough aluminum nip success stories that I was initially planning to go all aluminum nips (and all spokes DT Swiss Revolution, and 20h front / 24h rear) but decided to play it safe and put brass nips and Competition spokes on drive side (and upped the spoke count to 24/28). I went with alternating red/black nips too for a custom aesthetic and brass nips only come in silver or black.


Interestingly I haven't even touched the spoke wrench yet. Still using a flat bladed screwdriver from the back side for everything. Ditto for the front wheel. Much easier. The nips on the front wheel were poking through just at the edge of preventing the screwdriver from getting a good grip.

well biked

Yes, all I can say is that I emphasize working in small increments as the wheel comes up to tension. Small increments in all areas of the build, that is.

Good luck-

3alarmer 

IF the tension numbers you've given are in order around the wheel (I assume they are),
and you are absolutely sure your lacing pattern is correct (it is not difficult to get off
by a hole on this, somewhere along the way) then the only thing I got is maybe the
rim came to you tweaked already. It does happen, either in the manufacturing process
or in shipping and handling, and it does not have to be all that much of a tweak on something
like velocity (which by now you can tell I do not like very much) to significantly alter the
tensions you need to pull the ****ers true.

Were it me, I'd start from go at this point and carefully examine the rim for flatness and
roundness when it is completely detensioned. Otherwise, I got nothin'.

Maybe Mr. Rabbit has some insight ?

ultraman6970

I do wheels for friends and for me, not more than 4 or 5 pairs per year, sometimes I'm years w/o building any. My best guess is that the rim is not 100% round. My super low experience with velocity rims is that they come pretty good from factory, in a matter of fact the 1t time i used them even the seam area was pretty good (the machining process) that in other rims it gets all wacky. Remember the 1st one came out perfect w/o even forcing spokes or anything, i was amazed.

I believe you the wheel is true, so IMO you have a few options.

1 leave the darn tension meter thing in the box and feel the tension by hand. I have survived like 30 years w/o it. Never bought one because learn to build w/o it and because are too expensive for the volume of wheels i do. Is like buying a BB facing tool that will be used maybe 3 times in 5 years.

2 lose the whole wheel and start working in pairs little by little, once round in both axis start tightening 1/4 of turns per spoke, that will keep the tension kind'a even. And dont use the tension meter, you are not the 1st one using it that gets tension problems (search function).

In my experience tension is in ranges, but if the rim has something weird it doesnt surprise me that u get 2 spokes that are clearly with less tension than the other ones. For me that's normal because it will depend on how good the rim is. Sometimes u have to choice between leaving a spoke with less tension vs leave the wheel with a tiny 1 mm wooble just because the rim was not right. U can fix the rim too but I dont think u want to wack the rim out with a hammer in the places u have less tension.

I know some of you will frown but If i was a pro builder I would just use another rim if the rim is too bad, since I build stuff for fun that changes the perspective and believe me, you wont feel 1 mm out of roundness while riding. Nobody does unless u area a crazy perfectionist person.

Good luck with the build.

mrrabbit 

1. Mark the 3 loosest drive side spokes with tape.

2. Mark the 3 loosest non-drive side spokes with tape.

3. Give the drive side spokes 6 clicks of additional tension.

4. Give the non-drive side spokes 3 clicks of additional tension.

5. Do a serious stress relief of the wheel by grabbing parallel spokes and squeezing considerably FOR TWO COMPLETE ROTATIONS...14 times since it's a 28 hole rear.

6. Dish the wheel - never do any de-tensioning on the marked spokes.

7. Stress relieve again.

8. True the wheel to +/- .003 in. - we are sacrificing a little trueness here. Once again - never de-tension the marked spokes - just finish the wheel working around those spokes.

9. Do a tension cycle of 2 clicks non-drive and 4 clicks drive if needed - followed by the usual stress relief and dish check. (See tension goals below...)

If you are left with teeny tiny hops and lateral flares...so be it. Important thing is to achieve the following:

Drive Side

110 kgf to 115 kgf for the majority of the spokes. 1-3 will settle at 100-110kgf...1-3 might be at @120-130 kgf.

Just do the best you can.

Also go to Youtube...

Search for "wheelsbyfleming"...

I have a video there on how to use a piece of electrical tape as a fine point AND or dial indicator so you can easily achieve +/- .002 by eye alone. If you don't have a Park Tool TS-2 - I'm sure you'll figure out an adaption.

Good Luck!

=8-)

mrrabbit 

For a long while they had great seams. Then for a period of almost a year awhile back - their seams were everywhere but in line with the rim. We even had spat here with Velocity and the CEO - followed by a phone chat. A "professional" moment that was very worthwhile.

Their seams have been much better since - the only issue that I run into now with their 30mm+ deep aero rims is that occasionally I'll run into a rim where the aero "triangle" profile leans one way off center. I expect it with the B43...that's an extremely hard rim to manufacture...but they do that kind of rim better than anyone else. But it popped up in an Aerohead once so I paid 'em a visit at Interbike and let 'em know.

The CEO has asked repeatedly - if you see these kind of issues - give 'em a call or send them an email. They do want to know. Tell your LBS the same as well...

=8-)

ultraman6970

Wow MR rabbitt... can tell you this for a living, nice trick

blaronn

Thanks for all the ideas, folks. I'll give 'em a try in the next couple days and will report back. I actually have a 2nd identical wheelset to build so I can experiment with that as well.

Retro Grouch 

If it was my wheel I'd start over.

Loosen every nipple until you have just 1 thread showing. Then gradually tighten them up 1 complete turn initially and 1/2 turn after that. If you're painstaking, that should keep the wheel round as the tension builds.

davidad

I work on getting the rim radially true before I get it laterally true, then I build tension.

blaronn

- Tension is already 117 on two spokes. If I add tension I'll just go further beyond your 110-115 kgf range on these.

- What's a "click"?

well biked

I believe steps 3 and 4 in mrrabbit's instructions are only meant for the spokes you identify in steps 1 and 2.

cny-bikeman

To me the tension arrangement shows a clear rim problem. The lowest values are adjacent and opposite the joint area. You had to release the spokes opposite to avoid a low spot due to the overtension required at the seam, and that same overtension produced extremely low tension on the spokes immediately to one side of the seam. I don't believe that even somewhat careless building could produce such a result or that careful building could have avoided it. You seemed to have followed a reasonable approach, and the others suggested would not make that much difference. Every wheel is different, and I cannot say that I followed the same protocol on the wheels I built in my career, especially approaching the end of the build.

mrrabbit 

If you pay close attention when turning nipples past @ 90 kgf...you'll notice they click. 3-4 clicks is roughly 1/4 turn. It's these clicks that are utilized for very fine truing as you approach optimal tension.

The clicks are felt - no so much heard.

=8-)

cyccommute 

Only if you don't lubricate the threads and the rim nipple interface. Even then 'clicks' are hardly regular. It's not like the rim has some kind of pawl mechanism built into the spoke hole. Giving a fraction of a turn of the spoke nipple would be far more useful and more measurable.

By the way, 0.003" is about the thickness of a human hair. Are you really suggesting that a wheel trued to that level of trueness isn't true? Your standards for trueness are way past what mine are... or just about anyone else's

ultraman6970

The last wheelset i built I did not get any click hehe (mavic gp4)

hagen2456

Can't say I agree with you there. In my experience, it can make it rather difficult to mount the tyre without having bumps.

I actually find that it's even more important for a smooth ride that the wheel is near-perfectly round than having it absolutely straight. I'd advice the OP to go for roundness as the first priority, and then let the tension be a little out of tune, so to say.

mrrabbit 

1. I can feel the clicks even when lube and spoke prep are used. Spoke prep dulls 'em... (Don't hear it though cause I'm 1/2 deaf...assuming they can be heard.)

2. Yep... .003 is pretty true as well....some would say the same for .004. Consider me spoiled, plus since I build so many wheels - it's a habit.

(See my video at Youtube - that wheel I test is literally what I typically get with that double wall MTB rim in 1.5 hours time using electrical tape as a point and dial indicator...)

3. When dealing with looser spokes, I just approximate the click distance of a tighter spoke. It's a judgement call. It is nice to have a very high quality and consistently extruded rim though...makes the clicks more approximate. However, a stress relief action will reveal the rogue spokes anyway. Not all clicks will result in the same amount of affect, not all fractions of a turn will result in the same amount of affect....

One thing a "click" verifies is that you've taken up some thread AND have moved the rim. Of course, it will vary from spoke to spoke. And most wheel builders are subconsciously using them to do very fine truing in the .001 and .002 range - some will deny it. I watched one right here in San Jose do so right in front of me - deny it when I pointed it out - and then almost go ballastic on me when I asked,

"How come you are not using 1/4 and 1/2 turns then?"

(I've know this guy for over 30 years...he tends to forget who I am...lie...and then realize too late who he's talking too......)


=8-)

blaronn

Well, I tried mrrabbit's 9-step plan for fixing the trueness/tension but couldn't get it to work so I set it aside and started working on the other rear wheel. It went together swimmingly well. I think I'm finally learning the concept of incremental changes. Interestingly, I took both wheels and got them to the same state (threads just barely showing on all spokes) and checked lateral trueness. Wheel #1 had 2.9mm of wobble and wheel #2 had 1.8mm wobble. Wheel #2 didn't give me any problems. I'll revisit wheel #1 in a couple days and start from scratch although I'm now wondering whether 2.9mm is too much slop to overcome.